The doctrine of universal atonement is blasphemous because:
1. The teaching that Christ died to save all men makes man his own savior.
2. Teaching a universal atonement reduces the love of God to nothing.
3. Teaching a universal atonement reduces the wisdom of God to foolishness.
4. Teaching a universal atonement is a denial of the justice of God.
5. Teaching a universal atonement reduces the omnipotence of almighty God to impotence weaker than the will of man!
6. Teaching a universal atonement asserts that the immutable God is, after all, fickle, mutable, and changeable.
7. Teaching a universal atonement robs God of his glory in salvation.
8. Teaching a universal atonement denies the satisfaction of Christ.
9. Teaching a universal atonement affirms that there are multitudes in hell for whom the Lord Jesus Christ died in vain!
10. Teaching a universal atonement separates the priestly office and work of Christ, declaring that Christ sacrificed himself for and died in the place of a people for whom he refused to pray (John 17:9, 20).
11. Teaching a universal atonement makes the cross of Christ a miscarriage and asserts that he shall never see of the travail of his soul and be satisfied (Isaiah 53:10-11).
12. Teaching a universal atonement gives sinners no reason to look to, trust, and hope in Christ.
13. Teaching a universal atonement offers believers no reason to love, obey, and glorify Christ.
14. Above all else, teaching a universal atonement declares that Jesus Christ is a failure, a weak,
frustrated, defeated failure, rather than the sovereign, effectual Savior of his people!
PDF version of sermon:
Possibly Related Posts:
Tags: Don Fortner, Election, Free-will, God, Salvation
You say:
The doctrine of universal atonement is blasphemous because:
1. The teaching that Christ died to save all men makes man his own savior.
I say, “WHAT?” how illogical. It makes the CHRIST my savior.
2. Teaching a universal atonement reduces the love of God to nothing.
I say, “WHAT?” how illogical. It makes GOD’s love unconditional… “love NEVER fails”.
3. Teaching a universal atonement reduces the wisdom of God to foolishness.
I say “WHAT?” how illogical. It means that GOD is all-knowing and all-wise, attributes that overcome death and makes ALL things NEW.
4. Teaching a universal atonement is a denial of the justice of God.
I say “WHAT?” how illogical. It means that justice is served by a punishment in a place of divine purification meant to correct our sinful actions by bringing the TRUTH into our midst and awakening our souls to this TRUTH that Jesus, the Christ, is the LORD of ALL and the SAVIOR of ALL. AMEN!
5. Teaching a universal atonement reduces the omnipotence of almighty God to impotence weaker than the will of man!
I say “WHAT?” how illogical. I could do this for the rest of your suppositions but I must stop for the inherent misunderstanding you obviously have of the sovereignty of GOD, his plan for his creation and how his WILL supercedes OURS in every aspect.
Wow, I am just amazed. You dare call yourself Berean in your understanding and research of the Scriptures?
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Eric,
If you think that the Christian Faith and Life is LOGICAL then I’m sorry but you are illogical and haven’t read the Scriptures very well.
I guess you didn’t bother to listen to the sermon or to read the PDF of the sermon or else many of your questions would have been answered.
I’ll try later to show you how illogical the Christian life is.
Berean Wife
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Eric,
See the post That’s Not Logical so you can better understand why I say that the Bible and our Christian Faith is not logical.
Berean Wife
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Eric,
Bold is the response to your comment. The quotes are from Don Fortner’s sermon available HERE.
The doctrine of universal atonement is blasphemous because:
1. The teaching that Christ died to save all men makes man his own savior.
I say, “WHAT?” how illogical. It makes the CHRIST my savior.
“If the Lord Jesus only made redemption possible, if he only rendered men savable and put them in a savable condition, if he only made it possible for man’s sins to be put away, then any who are saved are saved, not because of what he did, but because of what they do!”
2. Teaching a universal atonement reduces the love of God to nothing.
I say, “WHAT?” how illogical. It makes GOD’s love unconditional… “love NEVER fails”.
“We delight in the love of God! But what kind of love is that which does not secure the salvation of its objects when it has the power to do so? If God loves all men alike, he has a strange way of showing it!
• Ask Noah’s neighbors about that.
• Ask the Sodomites of Lot’s day.”
3. Teaching a universal atonement reduces the wisdom of God to foolishness.
I say “WHAT?” how illogical. It means that GOD is all-knowing and all-wise, attributes that overcome death and makes ALL things NEW.
“We worship and serve the all-wise, omniscient Lord God, wonderful in counsel and infinite in knowledge. But where is the wisdom of forming a plan for the salvation of a people whom he knew would never be saved? Where is the wisdom of God in sacrificing his darling Son for people who were already in hell when he made the sacrifice?”
4. Teaching a universal atonement is a denial of the justice of God.
I say “WHAT?” how illogical. It means that justice is served by a punishment in a place of divine purification meant to correct our sinful actions by bringing the TRUTH into our midst and awakening our souls to this TRUTH that Jesus, the Christ, is the LORD of ALL and the SAVIOR of ALL. AMEN!
“If Christ was punished for my sins and I must also bear the punishment for them, the justice of God is gone! In fact, the justice of God gives us as much hope as the grace of God.”
My explanation: How can God punish Christ for everyone’s sins and then punish again those who did not “choose” Christ? Then Christ would have been punished in vain.
5. Teaching a universal atonement reduces the omnipotence of almighty God to impotence weaker than the will of man!
I say “WHAT?” how illogical. I could do this for the rest of your suppositions but I must stop for the inherent misunderstanding you obviously have of the sovereignty of GOD, his plan for his creation and how his WILL supercedes OURS in every aspect.
“ …the Arminian tells us plainly that God cannot save multitudes for whom Christ died because, though it is his will to do so, because they will not let him save them!”
My explanation: If those who do not “choose” Christ die and are sent to Hell then Christ was unable to save them. Man’s “free will” was stronger than the Salvation of Christ, which is offered but rejected. Salvation is reduced to being dependent upon man’s will.
Example: Is a policeman able to arrest you if you break the law? Or is it only if you are willing to be arrested? If a policeman can only arrest those who choose to be arrested then he is impotent and not able to uphold the law.
Wow, I am just amazed. You dare call yourself Berean in your understanding and research of the Scriptures?
Show me where I am wrong according to Scripture.
Berean Wife
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There are ample scriptures to support Calvinism, Free Will, Limited and Exclusive Atonement, and Universal Atonement. Google web sites for each and they will list scripture, straight from the Bible, that supports each different viewpoint. The various denominations that we see in our own communities are a good example of the different doctrines that different people and groups can get straight from the Bible. I have not found the Bible to provide one singular, unified doctrine that all scripture supports, without other scripture that offers contradictions. The fact is…a lot of things can be “concluded” using scripture, and many of them are in conflict. In my view, God is totally righteous and merciful, and therefore He has provided universal atonement for all through Jesus. I have ample verses to support that, as I’m sure other have ample veres to refute it. The fact is, the Bible does not have any one single unified doctrine supported by all scripture.
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Don,
You are correct that there are verses that seem to support many different interpretations but all of Scripture must be followed we can’t just take a few verses and design our own theology. No man will ever here on Earth be able to fully understand the complexity of God’s Sovereignty and Man’s Will, and the scope of the Atonement. We are limited humans and we will never understand all of God’s ways.
However, if you choose to ignore the verses that deal with God’s Sovereignty and just focus on man’s will then you run into problems. Always follow a concept out to its conclusion.
If Jesus died for all men and all their sins for all time, which is the general consensus of those holding to the Free Will Universal Atonement ideology, what is the conclusion? Jesus could not have died for all sin because then He would not have died for the sin of “not choosing Christ.” So then you have to stretch it and say well Jesus died for all but the sin of unbelief. You see where that leads.
In addition, if Jesus died for all of mankind and He states that “all the Father has given Him He will not lose any.” Then the conclusion would be that either:
1) The Father didn’t give everyone to Christ.
2) The Son did not keep all that were given to Him.
John 6:37-39
37All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.
39 And this is the will of him who sent me,that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.ESV
So was Christ unsuccessful or did the Father just not give Him everyone?
Your most worrisome statement is that you feel “the Bible does not have any one single unified doctrine supported by all scripture.” That is scary if you claim to be a Christian because you are negating the whole of Scripture and just choosing what you wish.
All of Scripture is cohesive and does give a unified doctrine. Just because feeble men have trouble grasping the thoughts of God, that does not make God contradictory.
Scripture talks about the Sovereignty of God and the will of man. However, Scripture also points out that no man would choose right on their own, we are desperately wicked, evil and self-centered to our very core. There are none that do right – No not one. Therefore, if that were the case then no man would choose God. Thus, God in His Sovereignty choose some of us.
The men at Defending. Contending. and even Don Fortner himself would be better able to explain if I’m confusing. They are better than my feeble attempts at explaining the Sovereignty of God.
Berean Wife
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One problem is that the Bible has been translated and transcribed so many times that we really don’t know what the exact meaning of the original text might be, in all cases, in our modern English language. The Jews have a Bible that is relatively short and believe that it is divinely inspired and inerrant. The Protestant Bible is 66 books and is believed to be divinely inspired and inerrant. The Catholic Bible is 77 books, and so on. The Protestant Bible has so many versions and translations now and it seems everyone has their own favorite translation. I find it hard to believe that every Bible variation printed is “divinely inspired and inerrant.” Then, we could go back to the “authorized” King James, the 1611 edition, which contains the Apocrypha, which many consider the closest to the old original languages. Of course, later, the Apocrypha was taken out and it was still “divinely inspired and inerrant.” Who decided what original scripture would be in the Bible, what would be left out, and what they based that on, is another story. I could go on and on about Bible variations, but the point is clear. There is no definitive original Bible, it does not contain all known scripture, their words do not always have exact matches in our modern English, and the translations of the scripture they included keep changing.
All I can do is state my opinion, and that is, that I believe God to be merciful and righteous as the Bible states in verse after verse. And one of the many key verses that supports inclusive redemption is Romans 5:18 which says “Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.” In essense, this clearly states that the “fall of man” at the time of Adam and Eve was completely nullified by the act of Jesus on the cross, as verified in 1 Cor. 15:21-22 “For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.” It says “all will be…” and that is very direct and very clear. Verse 1 states we are justified by faith. It does not say we are justified by election. Another supporting verse would be 1 John 2:2, “And he (Jesus) is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.” Also, John 1:29, “…Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.” Another…Timothy 2:5-6, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.”
I realize their are ample verses to support election. Which gets back to my original position, that there is no single unified doctrine presented in the Bible that cannot be refuted by other verses. That’s why we have all the different denominations, all claiming the authority of the Bible, and with members totally convinced that their doctrine is the true doctrine, etc. etc. etc. These issues have been debated for centuries and we are no closer to a unified doctrine today than we were when the scriptural/doctrinal interpretations and disagreements began. It’s unfortunate, but that’s the reality of it.
Don
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Don,
You have a bigger issue to deal with than understanding the atonement. You have no faith even in the Bible, thus how can you be sure that God is merciful and righteous? You say the Bible states He is Merciful repeatedly in verse after verse but in the next sentence, you don’t trust the Bible because it is poorly translated and there are so many versions.
My husband can explain the Bible translation issues much better because he has an extensive Bible collection and has researched the matter. I have asked him to respond better to your comment when he gets a chance.
But here is a simple explanation of election and indirectly of Universal Atonement.
Paul Washer on Election
Berean Wife
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If I had no faith in the Bible, any of it, I would not have quoted it. I stated the true observation that the Bible has been translated and altered in many ways down through the years, and I gave examples. I also gave an ample number of Biblical quotes that support my belief in inclusive redemption, so obviously I do believe in many, many verses.
There are some verses I do not believe, but this does not apply to the entire Bible. For example, I do not believe that God had a part, either directly or indirectly, in killing over two million people as the Old Testament documents, account by account. A million Ethiopians were killed in a single encouter, it says. I don’t believe that. I also do not believe that a donkey actually had a conversation with a person, as is documented in detail in Numbers 22. I do not believe that Aaron threw down a walking stick and it turned into a real, live snake that ate other snakes, and turned back into a walking stick again. From this same story, I do not believe that Pharoah’s men threw down their walking sitcks and by using their “magic arts” they turned into real live snakes also. I do not believe God inerrantly inspired anyone to write that it’s safe to handle snakes and drink poison and that it will not hurt you if you believe the gospels, as stated Mark 16: 17-18. (By the way, I strongly suggest that no ones tries this!) There are many more, just as there are many that ARE true.
As a rational person I do not believe in talking snakes or donkeys, dragons, unicorns, satyrs (half man, have animal), cockatrices (part rooster with the tail of a serpant that kills people by looking at them), or that the world is flat and all the kingdoms can be seem from a tall mountain in the middle east (Mathew 4:8). The Bible mentions all of these creatures that are found no where else but in mythology. I don’t know any rational, objective person who truly believes in them, or that all the kingdoms of the earth, even in that day, could be seen from one mountain top. Further, I do not think rational thinking and common sense is inherently exclusive of belief in God and salvation. In this regard I follow another verse that I do believe, and have put into action, and that is 1Thessolonians 5:21.
I say again, we cannot know the original intent of every verse in every instance because their original words and meanings don’t always match ours in modern English. I gave a good and irrefutable example of a major alteration in the King James version. I also quoted ample scriptures to substantiate my position on inclusive redemption. I will also add Jeremiah 8:8 that defends my position that not everything in the Bible is accurate, again straight from the Bible, that says: ” ‘How can you say, “We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD,” when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?” Which verses were they referring to? All of them? Even the ones that hadn’t been written yet? Why would God inerrently inspire anyone to write that? These are questions that must be asked by those who believe in total, perfect inerrancy.
The fact is, we often have to use common sense to discern certain verses and meanings, as well as translations of the variations in different Bible editions. They exist, and can be found in number on the shelves of any large bookstore, Christian or secular. Naturally, there are some verses I do not believe, such as the references given, and another would be Malachi 2:3. Yet, there are others that I do believe, and I listed a few of them in a previous post. There are many more, particularly in the Psalms and Proverbs, and also in the New Testament.
I will close with 1 Thessolonians 5:21 that states: “Test all things and hold fast to that which is good.”
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BTW…after I sent this I read over some of the other posts and notice the nice feature you have that “grays” Bible scripture and if I hold my mouse over it, it shows the verse. That’s a really good feature you have here. What program is that?
I did notice that I had copied and pasted some verses that weren’t from the KJV and how differently some of those were worded from the KJV. Another example, right before our eyes, that all translations aren’t the same. Fortunately, none that I saw gave radically different meanings however, most were pretty well in line.
Also, I’m not meaning to debate you or argue with you, but was stating my positions, with references on what I based it on. I’m not trying to convert you to my way of thinking. You seem happy in your beliefs and I don’t want to alter that. Maybe we’ll just agree to disagree on some things, and agree on others.
Thank you for a nice web site. I know it is primarily intended for a viewpoint that is somewhat different than mine, so maybe it will be better if I don’t post anything that would be distracting from your beliefs.
Thanks again. It’s been quite civil despite being somewhat theologically diverse.
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Don,
The concept of inerrancy of the scriptures as it relates to the transmission of texts in the original language as well as translations of those texts into modern languages is indeed one major point of controversy within the Christian community and gives cause for scoffing and riducule from those outside of the Christian community. Here are some thoughts on the issues brought forth in the preceeding comment.
First, we must grapple with the transmission of the text in its original languages: Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic. Here we must also recognize that the transmission of our Old Testament text has occurred in a significantly different manner than the New Testament text. The typical Old Testament text has been passed down through the Jewish scribes through the years with practically little change. Comparing the Dead Sea Scrolls from the time before Christ to the so-called Masoretic text of the 10th century A.D., we find very, very small differences in matters of spelling and word order. So we can be certain that the Old Testament text we are using is accurate.
The New Testamet text is different. There are some 5,000 extant manuscripts of the Greek New Testament text. Only a few of these are complete Bibles; most are fragments of books or a few books. And there are siginficant differences between the texts. But it is the large number of texts which gives us assurance that we can reconstruct the New Testament with great accuracy. (The following is a great over-simplification.) If we have ten copies of any given verse and nine read the same, then we can say most probably the reading of the original text agrees with the nine and then we can note the variant of the tenth. But since the Bible is an integrated whole, there is nothing in the variants which affect the doctrines of the Christian faith because these doctrines are given more than once in the New Testament.
So, in the first conclusion, I believe that we have today very accurate reconstructions of what was written by the original authors of the Bible.
Now, on the matter of translations. It is my opinion that there are better translations and worse translations.The best translations are those which attempt to be very literal: the Geneva, the KJV, the RV, the ASV, the RSV, the NRSV, the NKJV and the ESV, to name a few. Other translations seek to be more “reader-friendly”, and in doing so may no longer be true to the original text. Then there are other translations which out-and-out pervert the text, such as the NWT.
So, in the second conclusion,I think we must be very careful when we chose a Bible to use for our primary Bible study and we then must also be willing to do two things: 1) compare the translated text to the original Greek and Hebrew text, and 2) compare various versions of the Bible to see how the text has been translated through the years.
The matter of the Aprocrypha is perhaps the most interesting topic in the transmission of the Bible. It is interesting to list the Bibles which have the apocrypha, which do not, and under what circumstances it is included. For instance, the Dead Sea Scrolls nor the Masoretic text contain the apocrypha. However the Septuagint does contain the apocrypha and it is interspersed throughout the text. When Anthansius prepared his definitive listing of books in the Bible in the late 300’s A.D., it did not contain the apocrypha. But when Jerome translated the Bible into Latin in the early 400’s, he included the apocrypha interspersed throughout the text. This tradition continues with the JB, NJB, and NAB today. Just after the protestant reformation, the apocrypha was included in the Geneva Bible and the King James Bible, but it was bound in a group in between the Old and New Testaments. And there are statements in the original introductions of both of these Bibles to the effect that the apocrypha is included as useful for reading, but not for consideration as divinely inspired. Coming from the protestant background, I believe that the apocrypha is extra-Biblical. It contains some good history, but not good theology.
In regards to the differences in denominations that have arisen because of the dispute between election and free will, I understand what you are saying 100%. I cannot reconcile this in my small mind either. I believe in the elect being chosen from before the foundation of the world. But then how do you reconcile the “whosoever will…” verses in the Bible? It is not a satisfying answer to me to say “Whosoever will, but then nobody will.” But then I am not the one who needs to be satisfied either. I am reading a biography of George Whitefield right now. He held to the “reformed” theology, and this caused a rift between himself and John and Charles Wesley, who preached a “free will” theology. Whitefield attempted for years to reconcile with the Wesleys, but to no avail.
Is there not a common ground on which those of “reformed” theology can meet with those of “free will” theology? After all, for the most part, we all believe in salvation by faith alone in Christ alone, the need for prayer, preaching, and evangelism. In the practical outworking of our theology, we are very similar,
I agree that these issues have been debated for centuries, and by people much smarter and much more devout than me. I look forward to the day when I shall see “face to face” so that some of these issues become so much clearer. We may never fully understand, even in heaven, because we will still be finite beings. But in the meantime, I do see the need for a kind-spirited discussion of these matters as we all seek to get closer to the truth.
Berean Husband
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Don,
You question the Bible on the miraculous details such as the Donkey talking (Numbers 22:21-35) and Aaron’s walking stick becoming a snake (Exodus 7:12), along with all the other details in the Bible you mentioned. How then can you believe that God provided His Son as atonement for your sins? That Jesus died, was buried and rose again on the third day? That is more miraculous than believing the Earth was created in six days, that a Donkey spoke or staffs turned to snakes.
I would then imagine that you believe that there is no Hell and no final judgment as they are referred to in the Bible.
You said concerning miracles:
“ …I don’t know any rational, objective person who truly believes in them…”
Jeremiah 8:8
8 [ Ro 2:17-21 ] “How can you say, ‘We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us’? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes has made it into a lie.
9 [ 1 Co 1:19,20 ] The wise men shall be put to shame; they shall be dismayed [Job 5:13] and taken;
behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD, so what wisdom is in them?
I left the cross references in so that you can see a better explanation of the verses.
But notice what God says about the wisdom of man:
1 Corinthians 1:18-31
18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written, “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.”
20 Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe.
22 For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom,
23 but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles,
24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth.
27 But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong;
28 God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are,
29 so that no human being might boast in the presence of God.
30 He is the source of your life in Christ Jesus, whom God made our wisdom and our righteousness and sanctification and redemption.
31 Therefore, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.” ESV
You think you have reasoned out the Scriptures and chosen the reasonable and wise verses to follow but yet you will be made foolish at some point by God Himself.
1 Thessalonians 5:21 … but test everything; hold fast what is good. ESV
Is a wise verse but how do you determine what is good? By comparing it to Scripture.
Acts 17:11
“Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.” NIV
As for your comments for the Apocrypha, as far as I know only the Catholic Church believes that it is inspired. All others believe the apocrypha books are interesting for history but not divinely inspired. They even had notes stating that fact. (see Berean Husband’s comment)
Don, you have done no differently than Thomas Jefferson did with his Jefferson’s “bible”! Thomas Jefferson did not believe in the miracles and strange events recorded in the Bible so he cut them out! Jefferson did not believe in Angels, miracles, or the resurrection. He actually ends his “bible” with John 19 having Jesus be laid in the tomb. He left out the resurrection.
If there is no resurrection than there is no Salvation!!!!!
1 Corinthians 15:12-17
12 Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised.
14 And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain.
15 We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised.
16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised.
17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. ESV
Whether or not you are happy in your beliefs or whether I am happy in my beliefs is irrelevant. Is God happy with our beliefs or have we misrepresented Him?
I don’t mind having someone disagree with me and challenge me on my beliefs. If my faith can’t hold up to a man’s challenge, how will it ever hold up to Satan’s twisting of Scripture, because he is the accuser of the brethren.
We should all sharpen and encourage one another in our walk, as long as we do it all with grace and mercy.
Proverbs 27:17 Iron sharpens iron, and one man sharpens another. ESV
Berean Wife
The Bible hyperlinks are done by http://www.logos.com/reftagger .
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See also:
What if you don’t like the Bible?
Berean Wife
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Good reply, well stated. Often the truth is found between the extremes. I have learned a lot about Calvinism from this site and continue to learn, and I think civil and kind-spirited discussion on these matters helps broaden one’s view on God, salvation, scripture, and everything related. I have not tried to attack your position, but only to explain mine.
Thanks again Berean Husband & Wife. You have a very good web site and are obviously very devoted to God and your beliefs. I hope your endeavors continues to prosper.
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Don,
Thank you for the kind words.
Don’t take anything we say for truth. Compare everything to the Scriptures and then and only then will you find the truth and not the extremes.
See the post What in the World does “World” Mean in the Bible?
I think it will help understand the how the word “world” means different things in different context.
You haven’t attacked and I have enjoyed the discussion. I wish someone would have taken the time to teach me about the Scriptures and really challenged me years ago to know what I believed and back it up with Scriptures. I have gotten man’s opinions for far too long. I wouldn’t have to being playing catch up so much now.
Now I’m only content with God’s Word and His opinion.
Berean Wife
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I had written a long rebuttal to the post you left following your husband, mainly to point out that some things you “imagined” concerning my views were not accurate. I did not think your comments always accurately reflected what I actually said, ie partial quotes taken out of context, etc. I will say, lovingly, in your determination to prove your point you must not “bear false witness” about what I, or anyone else says. Quote it accurately, in context, and try to avoid “imagining” what another believes, nor about how God may or may not judge them in accordance to your beliefs or wishes. I think we’ve both made our points and there would be no reason to continue in a circle.
I’ve learned a lot about Calvinism here and have not tried to discredit your position, but only explain mine. I think we both have a lot of valid points and there’s probably more common ground than we both realize.
Again, thank you for a good web site, and I hope it continues to prosper.
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Don,
Please accept my apologies if I was not accurate in my understanding of your views. I willingly stand corrected if I did twist your words. Please show me where I did so that I can learn from my mistakes.
Just at a glance the only quote I gave of yours in that comment was:
“ …I don’t know any rational, objective person who truly believes in them…”
The full sentence was:
“I don’t know any rational, objective person who truly believes in them, or that all the kingdoms of the earth, even in that day, could be seen from one mountain top.”
Just prior to that you did mention some names of animals most specifically from the KJV version, which I could spend plenty of time pointing out what each name was in the original Hebrew and Greek, if we actually do have any clue to the animal. Nevertheless, you also included “talking donkeys” in that list. So I interpreted that as meaning that you feel that if your human mind cannot rationally explain something, then you will not believe it.
If I misunderstood, I’m sorry and please show me my error.
Maybe my “iron” was dull.
Berean Wife
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Here is a great video for you that may shed some light on this discussion.
We are all created for the ultimate purpose of God’s Glory.
This subject is difficult to understand and I think Mark Kielar may shed some light on it as he explains the doctrine of Double Predestination…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Sawg2PX2aI
No matter how much we don’t want to accept it, the fact remains that some will be saved from God’s wrath and some won’t.
As Paul Washer has stated “To be under a curse, means that in your sin you are so desperately wicked and vile and grotesque before not only a Holy God but the Holy inhabitants of heaven that the last thing you will hear when you take your first step into hell is all of creation standing to its feet and applauding God because He has rid the earth of you.”
This is difficult for my human mind to comprehend. I am just thankful that there is nothing I can do to be saved and I am depending 100% on Jesus Christ- AMEN!
BTW- Our revival meetings this week are excellent!
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RW,
I’m glad the revival is going well! I’ve been praying for it this week. I also meant to send you an email to let you know but time is slipping up on me.
I have seen that video and I may need to post it. That is a very hard concept for people to grasp. Even if you do believe in talking Donkeys.
Thankfully, we do not have to understand everything.
Berean Wife
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I intended to not post this, but since you asked…”Please show me where I (was not accurate in my understanding of your views) so that I can learn from my mistakes.” OK, here it is.
Your first question…Why don’t I believe in the “miracles” of talking donkeys, and snakes that turn into walking sticks, and yet do believe in Jesus, and all He did and was sent to do? Do you really equate the so-called “miracle” of talking animals with the life and true miracles of Jesus? Do you really believe that to deny the belief in talking animals is to deny Christ? Or that a belief in talking animals is essential to the belief in Christ and salvation? I can’t believe you would draw a parallel between the “miracles” of talking animals and the life of Jesus and the true miracles He performed. I’ve seen some Biblical debates in my time, but this one goes in the Hall of Fame.
Next, the out of context quote you listed: “You said concerning miracles: “…I don’t
know of any rational, objective person who truly believes in them.” You imply strongly that I said that I didn’t know any rational person that believes in miracles. That was your intention, and I NEVER said that. Your logic seems to be: Jill is a girl. Jill has blond hair. Therefore, all girls have blond hair. Or, the old “throw the baby out with the bath water” analogy. If you are going to quote me, quote me accurately and in context. I never said, or implied in any manner, in context, that I didn’t know of any rational person that believed in miracles. I said I didn’t know any rational people that actually, deep down, really and truly, believe in unicorns or other mythological animals (whether they talk or not). You made quite a stretch taking that and giving a partial quote out of context that said I didn’t know any rational person that believed in miracles. The true fact is, I know a lot of rational people, including me, that believe in miracles, real miracles, and I did NOT say what you stated I did.
Next point…you state: “I would then imagine that you believe that there is no Hell and no final judgment as they are referred to in the Bible.” You can “imagine” anything you want, but I never said any of that either! As you state…it’s simply YOUR imagination. Be careful of assertions that are created in your own mind and falsely attributed to others. I have no idea where you dreamed that one up.
As to the long list of quotes on the wisdom of God I fully agree that God is wiser than man and have not said that He wasn’t. I said I did not believe every single scripture the Bible presents, and then listed Jeremiah 8:8 to substantiate that. Obviously some of the people in the Bible didn’t believe all the scriptures were accurate either. That’s surely what they said in that verse. Do you believe all of the scriptures, or just the ones that agree with your views? Your position indicates that you believe them all, and that would include Jeremiah 8:8, and everything else I quoted from scripture. In essence, your belief that all scriptures are perfectly accurate necessitates your belief in Jeremiah 8:8 which says all scripture is not accurate. A true dilemma.
Next point, you indicate that I don’t know what I’m talking about, the scriptures I quote aren’t as valid as yours, and that God will make a “fool” out of me, as you seem to want Him to. The Bible says it’s for God to judge, not humans. You should be careful on deciding for yourself who and how God will judge, lest you be judged yourself. Refer to the scripture that mentions one calling another a fool. You didnt call me one, but you sure said that God would.
Next…your way of validating scripture, specifically my mention of 1 Thessalonians 5:21. You say to test all things by scripture. I did. I have quoted ample verses, tested against other verses, that contradict each other. Another good example is the Old Testament quote that says if a person curses their parents they should be put to death. Later, Jesus says you have to hate your father and mother, siblings, and children in order to be a disciple. So which is it? Capital punishment for cursing parents, or Jesus refusing you as a disciple for not hating them? There. I just used your method again for testing all things. It proved nothing but that we’ve found more contradicting scripture.
Next point, I’m not surprised that you feel that you and your fellow Bereans are morally superior to the Thessalonians. I’m glad they searched the scripture in that day to make sure Paul was telling the truth. However, they did not search the Bible as we know it today, because it did not exist at that time, certainly not the New Testament that contains the preponderance of scripture about Jesus, and even Paul himself. I have no idea what scripture they refer to in that passage, other than some Old Testament scripture, and we have no idea what that might have included. Further, I did not know the Bereans would doubt Paul, but your quote indicates they did, which is doubting an apostle. I suppose if Bereans can doubt a legitimate apostle, then I can doubt certain questionable scriptures. The Bereans, like me, seem to like Thessalonians 5:21 about testing all things, even though they consider themselves better than the Thessalonians who wrote it.
And then back to the apocrypha again…I don’t know the Catholic position on that, and I didn’t bring that into the discussion. I simply said, truthfully, that the apocrypha was included in the “authorized” 1611 KJV and it was considered to be divinely inspired and inerrant. A few hundred years later the “church” decided that it wasn’t so divinely inspired and inerrant after all, and took the apocrypha out. They censured out the apocrypha and edited the “authorized” Bible, re-printed it, and again claimed that the revised version was also divinely inspired and inerrant. I really don’t think God changed His mind. I think it is another of many examples of human error in trying to get the Bible organized and stated the way they wanted. Now, we have a “new” KJV, and I wish they would hurry up get it right, once and for all.
Next…your accusation that I re-wrote the Bible the way Thomas Jefferson did is so absurd I won’t even comment on it.
Next…it gets worse when you accuse me of denying the resurrection! I NEVER SAID THAT, and you know it! That gets back to the THomas Jefferson allegation, and you stating that I am no different than him, with is false. You say he didn’t believe in the ressurecion, and by inference I don’t either. False. Again, you are not serving your purpose in a credible manner by making up things that I didn’t say, and then claiming that I said them (or “imagining” that I did)! Refer again to the verse about “bearing false witness.”
Next…as to happiness and misrepresenting God…I’m not sure about either of us misrepresenting God, but I’m sure you have misrepresented my beliefs and comments, and I can’t imagine that God would be thrilled over that. You quote certain Bible verses as if they out-weigh the ones I quote, you express opinion as fact, you “imagine” what I believe, you assert and attribute beliefs to me that I have never expressed, and you mis-quote me as fact. Again, play fair.
Then, you state “We should all sharpen and encourage one another in our walk, as long as we do it all with grace and mercy.” I see very little that your post did to encourage me or anyone else that disagrees with you, and I don’t see a lot of grace and mercy in it either. I would advise you to take your own advise on your own quote.
Whew…was this worth it? Probably not. Your husband gave a very credible and objective response which I appreciated. You followed with a post that wasn’t credible, objective, or accurate. I tried to avoid making comment on it, and later you ask me to. I truly believe you are a good person with good intentions, but there is a solid place for truth and reality concerning spiritual beliefs, too. I wish I could remember the quote I saw a Calvinist make concerning tolerance. I do remember the one that said. “There is a God. You’re not Him.” That applies to me and everyone else, too.
Again, I thank you for a good web site. It really is a good one, and I’ve learned more about Calvinism from it than from any other similar site. However, at this point I believe it’s of no further purpose to continue a discussion, which has turned into a debate, of our differences. Both are based on personal views, backed by a diverse choice of scripture that are often in conflict. There’s probably more common ground than appears in our exchanges, and we’re better off to be satisfied with that hope.
Thank you again, and I will close with Titus 3:9: “But avoid foolish controversies, arguments about genealogies, quarrels, and fights about the law. These things are useless and worthless.”
Don
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Don,
Your comments are bold.
“Your first question…Why don’t I believe in the “miracles” of talking donkeys, and snakes that turn into walking sticks, and yet do believe in Jesus, and all He did and was sent to do? Do you really equate the so-called “miracle” of talking animals with the life and true miracles of Jesus? Do you really believe that to deny the belief in talking animals is to deny Christ? Or that a belief in talking animals is essential to the belief in Christ and salvation? I can’t believe you would draw a parallel between the “miracles” of talking animals and the life of Jesus and the true miracles He performed. I’ve seen some Biblical debates in my time, but this one goes in the Hall of Fame. “
No actually, I do not equate the “miracle” of talking donkey’s and staffs turned to snakes as equal to Christ’s death, burial and resurrection to atone for our sins. Talking donkeys are easy to believe in. The hard part is to understand that God sent His beloved Son to die a horribly cruel death for sinners who hated Him and eagerly killed Him. That sir, is hard to believe!
Yes, I do mean to say that if you cannot trust God’s Word for something as simple as a talking donkey then your belief in Christ is flawed at best. When you start ruling out God’s Word as unbelievable there is no stopping. Then you soon get to the position that God didn’t create the earth in six days. That marriage does not have to be between a man and a woman. That women are allowed to be preachers. The list can go on…. Once you step on the slippery slope of you choosing what is true and what isn’t you’ve created your own religion.
Next, the out of context quote you listed: “You said concerning miracles: “…I don’t know of any rational, objective person who truly believes in them.” You imply strongly that I said that I didn’t know any rational person that believes in miracles. That was your intention, and I NEVER said that. Your logic seems to be: Jill is a girl. Jill has blond hair. Therefore, all girls have blond hair. Or, the old “throw the baby out with the bath water” analogy. If you are going to quote me, quote me accurately and in context. I never said, or implied in any manner, in context, that I didn’t know of any rational person that believed in miracles. I said I didn’t know any rational people that actually, deep down, really and truly, believe in unicorns or other mythological animals (whether they talk or not). You made quite a stretch taking that and giving a partial quote out of context that said I didn’t know any rational person that believed in miracles. The true fact is, I know a lot of rational people, including me, that believe in miracles, real miracles, and I did NOT say what you stated I did.
Your original full paragraph is:
1. As a rational person I do not believe in talking snakes or donkeys, dragons, unicorns, satyrs (half man, have animal), cockatrices (part rooster with the tail of a serpant that kills people by looking at them), or that the world is flat and all the kingdoms can be seem from a tall mountain in the middle east (Mathew 4:8). The Bible mentions all of these creatures that are found no where else but in mythology. I don’t know any rational, objective person who truly believes in them, or that all the kingdoms of the earth, even in that day, could be seen from one mountain top. Further, I do not think rational thinking and common sense is inherently exclusive of belief in God and salvation. In this regard I follow another verse that I do believe, and have put into action, and that is 1 Thessalonians 5:21.
You said as a rational person you do not believe in talking donkeys. Correct?
You also said that you do not believe that “all kingdoms can be {seen} from a tall mountain in the middle east (Matthew 4:8).” Correct?
“I don’t know any rational, objective person who truly believes in them, or that all the kingdoms of the earth, even in that day, could be seen from one mountain top.”
Since the previous sentences did state that, you were a) rational and b) did not believe in talking donkeys and most would say a talking donkey would be a miracle. It was included in your list of animals and I believe it happened. I also believe in great sea creatures, behemoths, and leviathans although no one translating the Bible actually is sure what they are anymore because they don’t seem to exist today.
Next point…you state: “I would then imagine that you believe that there is no Hell and no final judgment as they are referred to in the Bible.” You can “imagine” anything you want, but I never said any of that either! As you state…it’s simply YOUR imagination. Be careful of assertions that are created in your own mind and falsely attributed to others. I have no idea where you dreamed that one up.
Those are much harder to grasp than a talking donkey or a staff turned to a snake. What exactly do you believe about Heaven and Hell? How do you go to either place? How can you be sure if you have already said you do not believe the Bible in certain places?
As to the long list of quotes on the wisdom of God I fully agree that God is wiser than man and have not said that He wasn’t. I said I did not believe every single scripture the Bible presents, and then listed Jeremiah 8:8 to substantiate that. Obviously some of the people in the Bible didn’t believe all the scriptures were accurate either. That’s surely what they said in that verse. Do you believe all of the scriptures, or just the ones that agree with your views? Your position indicates that you believe them all, and that would include Jeremiah 8:8, and everything else I quoted from scripture. In essence, your belief that all scriptures are perfectly accurate necessitates your belief in Jeremiah 8:8 which says all scripture is not accurate. A true dilemma.
Jeremiah 8:8-9
8 “How can you say, ‘We are wise, and the law of the Lord is with us’? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes has made it into a lie.
9 The wise men shall be put to shame; they shall be dismayed and taken; behold, they have rejected the word of the Lord, so what wisdom is in them? ESV
This verse is accusing those who call themselves wise of having changed the Law of God. God says He will put to shame those “wise” men because they have rejected God’s Word. He will show they have no wisdom in them. God is in full control.
My Paraphase:
How can you say you are rational, and objective and that you know God’s Word and yet you make it into a lie. You rational and objective men shall be put to shame and shown the judgment of God. You have rejected God’s Word so you have no Wisdom.
I believe all of the Scriptures are:
2 Timothy 3:16-17
16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
17 that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work. ESV
God’s word is accurate and true in the original languages in which it was written. All translations are not equal and yet even in most of the literal translations (not paraphrases like The Message, and The Living Bible) there is very little real difference in the sum of the Scriptures.
I believe all of the Scriptures even Jeremiah 8:8-9 where God shows people try to be wise in their own eyes and tamper with His Word and they will be punished. Unlike what you said, I do believe in a single unified doctrine in Scripture that is not contradicted in other verses. Just because man has trouble understanding and even more trouble following Scripture, does not negate the Purity and Truth of Scripture.
Next point, you indicate that I don’t know what I’m talking about, the scriptures I quote aren’t as valid as yours, and that God will make a “fool” out of me, as you seem to want Him to. The Bible says it’s for God to judge, not humans. You should be careful on deciding for yourself who and how God will judge, lest you be judged yourself. Refer to the scripture that mentions one calling another a fool. You didnt call me one, but you sure said that God would.
I did not say any Scripture was not valid but you cannot just pick and choose and take verses out of context. You have to take all of Scripture. I’m sorry but God does say that if you tamper with His Word by either adding to it or taking away from it you will be judged. I’m just warning you of what will happen. We are told to warn others of the coming judgment.
Deuteronomy 12:32 “Everything that I command you, you shall be careful to do. You shall not add to it or take from it. ESV
You get to decide if you will truly check out everything I have said and whether you are a man of understanding or foolish.
Proverbs 17:10 A rebuke goes deeper into a man of understanding than a hundred blows into a fool. ESV
Next…your way of validating scripture, specifically my mention of 1 Thessalonians 5:21. You say to test all things by scripture. I did. I have quoted ample verses, tested against other verses, that contradict each other. Another good example is the Old Testament quote that says if a person curses their parents they should be put to death. Later, Jesus says you have to hate your father and mother, siblings, and children in order to be a disciple. So which is it? Capital punishment for cursing parents, or Jesus refusing you as a disciple for not hating them? There. I just used your method again for testing all things. It proved nothing but that we’ve found more contradicting scripture.
These verses do not contradict each other. The first is a command to the nation of Israel to keep God’s commandments. The fifth commandment is “Honor your Father and Mother”. The punishment for breaking the commandments was death. Verse about Jesus saying hate your Father and Mother:
Luke 14:26 “If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple. ESV
This verse is in a section where Jesus is explaining that disciples must count the cost to follow him. You must love Jesus, hate everything else, and not let anything get in your way of following Jesus. The last verse of that section is:
Luke 14:33 So therefore, any one of you who does not renounce all that he has cannot be my disciple.ESV
This is an example of your not reading more than one verse for the context.
Next point, I’m not surprised that you feel that you and your fellow Bereans are morally superior to the Thessalonians. I’m glad they searched the scripture in that day to make sure Paul was telling the truth. However, they did not search the Bible as we know it today, because it did not exist at that time, certainly not the New Testament that contains the preponderance of scripture about Jesus, and even Paul himself. I have no idea what scripture they refer to in that passage, other than some Old Testament scripture, and we have no idea what that might have included. Further, I did not know the Bereans would doubt Paul, but your quote indicates they did, which is doubting an apostle. I suppose if Bereans can doubt a legitimate apostle, then I can doubt certain questionable scriptures. The Bereans, like me, seem to like 1 Thessalonians 5:21 about testing all things, even though they consider themselves better than the Thessalonians who wrote it.
I agree that the Bereans did not search the New Testament since it wasn’t written at that time but they did search the Old Testament. There is plenty of Scripture in the OT that tells about the coming Messiah. The Old Testament Cannon was available at that time and there were Greek translations of the Jewish Scriptures, specifically the Septuagint . We do know what was contained in the Septuagint, people still have them. You should doubt anyone unless their word lines up with Scripture. Paul said to doubt himself or even an angel if it comes with a different gospel.
Galatians 1:8-9
8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.
9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed. ESV
Thessalonians did not write Thessalonians, Paul wrote a letter to the Thessalonian church. Bereans did not write that they were smarter than the Thessalonians, Luke did. You really need to read your Bible instead of taking pot shots at something that you haven’t thoroughly read.
And then back to the apocrypha again…I don’t know the Catholic position on that, and I didn’t bring that into the discussion. I simply said, truthfully, that the apocrypha was included in the “authorized” 1611 KJV and it was considered to be divinely inspired and inerrant. A few hundred years later the “church” decided that it wasn’t so divinely inspired and inerrant after all, and took the apocrypha out. They censured out the apocrypha and edited the “authorized” Bible, re-printed it, and again claimed that the revised version was also divinely inspired and inerrant. I really don’t think God changed His mind. I think it is another of many examples of human error in trying to get the Bible organized and stated the way they wanted. Now, we have a “new” KJV, and I wish they would hurry up get it right, once and for all.
The 1611 KJV is a translation of the Hebrew and Greek and some of Latin Scriptures. Actually, the “Authorized” 1611 KJV was never authorized and no one teaches from a 1611 KJV, contrary to what they may believe. The average person could not read it as it is written in Old English. Those who claim that the 1611 was inspired and inerrant and better than all other Scriptures versions are wrong and deceived. It has been changed several times over the years. There were at least two different 1611 KJV Bibles, the “He” Bible and the “She” Bible. Most 1611 KJV advocates actually are using the 1769 KJV. Dr. James R. White would be a good source if you want more information about the “Authorized” 1611 KJV. The KJV bible is a very interesting subject to study but it is a translation.
Next…your accusation that I re-wrote the Bible the way Thomas Jefferson did is so absurd I won’t even comment on it.
You are by throwing out verses you do not believe.
Next…it gets worse when you accuse me of denying the resurrection! I NEVER SAID THAT, and you know it! That gets back to the THomas Jefferson allegation, and you stating that I am no different than him, with is false. You say he didn’t believe in the ressurecion, and by inference I don’t either. False. Again, you are not serving your purpose in a credible manner by making up things that I didn’t say, and then claiming that I said them (or “imagining” that I did)! Refer again to the verse about “bearing false witness.”
I didn’t say you denied the resurrection but I did compare you to Thomas Jefferson by the way you throw out Scriptures that you cannot believe. You may have not literally removed the Scriptures but you have given them no authority and you have stated you do not believe them. Thomas Jefferson did deny the resurrection as I explained.
Next…as to happiness and misrepresenting God…I’m not sure about either of us misrepresenting God, but I’m sure you have misrepresented my beliefs and comments, and I can’t imagine that God would be thrilled over that. You quote certain Bible verses as if they out-weigh the ones I quote, you express opinion as fact, you “imagine” what I believe, you assert and attribute beliefs to me that I have never expressed, and you mis-quote me as fact. Again, play fair.
One of us has misrepresented God and woe to us. Both of us cannot be correct. Either those bizarre events happened or they didn’t. I trust God’s Word for my decision. I have not thrown out any of your verses but I have pointed out that you have no clue of their meaning because you just randomly picked a verse out of a passage.
Then, you state “We should all sharpen and encourage one another in our walk, as long as we do it all with grace and mercy.” I see very little that your post did to encourage me or anyone else that disagrees with you, and I don’t see a lot of grace and mercy in it either. I would advise you to take your own advise on your own quote.
You seem to be upset that I showed you the conclusion of your belief that you can NOT throw out Scripture as unbelievable and still be a follower of Jesus. I have encouraged you to read your Bible repeatedly and I have encouraged you to check out everything I have said. The Grace and Mercy comes in when I could have just ignored that you are not following God’s Word and left you to judgment without warning you.
Whew…was this worth it? Probably not. Your husband gave a very credible and objective response which I appreciated. You followed with a post that wasn’t credible, objective, or accurate. I tried to avoid making comment on it, and later you ask me to. I truly believe you are a good person with good intentions, but there is a solid place for truth and reality concerning spiritual beliefs, too. I wish I could remember the quote I saw a Calvinist make concerning tolerance. I do remember the one that said. “There is a God. You’re not Him.” That applies to me and everyone else, too.
Yes. Now I see that you have not once even considered if you are wrong in anyway. You will fight tooth and nail to discredit Scripture and what I said as “misrepresenting you” but not consider anything you’ve heard. I have also seen how very little you actually know about the Bible. Yes, it was worth it but I pity you unless you take any of this to heart and check it out.
Again, I thank you for a good web site. It really is a good one, and I’ve learned more about Calvinism from it than from any other similar site. However, at this point I believe it’s of no further purpose to continue a discussion, which has turned into a debate, of our differences. Both are based on personal views, backed by a diverse choice of scripture that are often in conflict. There’s probably more common ground than appears in our exchanges, and we’re better off to be satisfied with that hope.
Actually, I’m not a Calvinist. I’ve only read a handful of Calvin over my whole lifetime. I am a Bible Believing Christian, the whole of the Bible not just parts.
There is much benefit from discussing Scriptures and we can benefit immensely from searching all of the Bible for the meaning of a passage. Let Scripture interpret Scripture. But discussion does not work when you pick and choose what Scriptures are accurate. Until you accept God’s Word as truth then you will forever be having to defend yourself.
I do not have to convince anyone of “my beliefs” that is up to God to do the convincing. I just must share the truth of Scripture with you and warn you of the consequences. What I believe does not matter, what does God say matters.
Strive to find the one unified single doctrine of the Bible and then you will be correct.
Thank you again, and I will close with Titus 3:9: “But avoid foolish controversies, arguments about genealogies, quarrels, and fights about the law. These things are useless and worthless.”
Defending the Lord’s Word is not a worthless argument.
Why don’t you pick a verse that you throw out and let us discuss it? We can work to resolve your issue with the problem or else tell you that no one is sure what this verse means. That is better than defending your own beliefs in the “error and contradiction of Scripture”.
Berean Wife
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Thank you for the reply. It’s obvious we’re at an impasse, with each still quoting our chosen verses to support our different opinions. You believe the Bible (we havent’ identified which version) supports one doctrine, yours, and I still say it supports many, as evidenced by all the different denominations that are as strong in their beliefs as you are in yours. I still say the Bible is not inerrant and perfect in every single thing it says, and even you have discredited the 1611 KJV yourself. My view is, the Bible is not inerrant, but sufficient. God didn’t put any flaw into the Bible, all that came from man. We could go for days in this same circle and still be where we are now. Let’s just say we agree on some things and disagree on others.
I will close again with Titus 3:9: “But avoid foolish controversies, arguments about genealogies, quarrels, and fights about the law. These things are useless and worthless.”
Thanks again,
Don
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Don,
We are not at an impasse unless you chose to be.
I have several times stated that the Bible is inerrant and perfect in the original languages. Man does err at times in the translations, but we have so many documents and Scriptures from all times and we can see where errors occurred.
As my husband explained:
First, we must grapple with the transmission of the text in its original languages: Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic. Here we must also recognize that the transmission of our Old Testament text has occurred in a significantly different manner than the New Testament text. The typical Old Testament text has been passed down through the Jewish scribes through the years with practically little change. Comparing the Dead Sea Scrolls from the time before Christ to the so-called Masoretic text of the 10th century A.D., we find very, very small differences in matters of spelling and word order. So we can be certain that the Old Testament text we are using is accurate.
The New Testamet text is different. There are some 5,000 extant manuscripts of the Greek New Testament text. Only a few of these are complete Bibles; most are fragments of books or a few books. And there are siginficant differences between the texts. But it is the large number of texts which gives us assurance that we can reconstruct the New Testament with great accuracy. (The following is a great over-simplification.) If we have ten copies of any given verse and nine read the same, then we can say most probably the reading of the original text agrees with the nine and then we can note the variant of the tenth. But since the Bible is an integrated whole, there is nothing in the variants which affect the doctrines of the Christian faith because these doctrines are given more than once in the New Testament.
So, in the first conclusion, I believe that we have today very accurate reconstructions of what was written by the original authors of the Bible.
Now, on the matter of translations. It is my opinion that there are better translations and worse translations.The best translations are those which attempt to be very literal: the Geneva, the KJV, the RV, the ASV, the RSV, the NRSV, the NKJV and the ESV, to name a few. Other translations seek to be more “reader-friendly”, and in doing so may no longer be true to the original text. Then there are other translations which out-and-out pervert the text, such as the NWT.
There is more proof and evidence for the accuracy of the Bible than any other books known to man. There is more proof for the Bible than for Homer’s Iliad or even for many of William Shakespeare’s works. There are very few copies of those works.
See C.A.R.M. for a very interesting chart that shows how accurate our Bible is.
But saying you do not believe that things like a donkey talked, a snake became a staff, or the events with Satan and Jesus is very different than pointing out a translation error, such as spelling or using the wrong word.
The 1611 KJV did have errors (spelling, translation, added verses from copied notes, etc.) and many of them have been corrected over the centuries.
As to the version of the Bible that I use ESV, KJV, NKJV, Greek, Hebrew, NIV, ASV and YLT are the typical ones that I use during Bible study. Using a variety of good translations help to clear up misunderstandings if I don’t understand a particular usage of a word.
So what “Man-made” flaws do you struggle with? I would be glad to help you with them.
Berean Wife
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You are not a Calvinist? You don’t believe in predestination? Or maybe peole can believe in predestination and not be a Calvinist, I don’t know the doctrine well enough to know that. I guess I’m a little relieved that you aren’t strict in any denomination, but more of a Bible believing Christian, at least that’s what I gathered from your comments.
The first Calvinist I corresponded with on line, months and months ago, said he used the 1611 KJV because it was the best and the closest to the old languages. One of his positions was that babies could go to hell. God decided all that before anyone was born, but since they didn’t accept Jesus, his belief was that all babies, as I understood him, went to hell. Worse than that (can’t remember if this was said on his web site, or another similar one), life starts at the moment of conception and miscarriages and abortions could go to hell. I never really understood exactly his denomination, but everything he said on his view of scripture was in line with the Calvinist position, especially he was a strong predestinationist. Soverign or not, Calvinist or not, anything or not, any doctrine that says God punishes the un-born and burns them eternally in hell, is highly suspect in my view. I don’t know if that’s a Calvinist belief, or just his personal belief. But he said it came straight from scripture.
Don
Anyway, that was just a foot note to the 1611 KJV.
Don
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Don,
I agree that we should avoid foolish arguments but as Berean Wife pointed out, she is not arguing, she is defending our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
A lot of times we can disagree on things, the Doctrine that all of scripture is true is not a Doctrine that can be compromised on as she has indicated. We must believe that all of scripture is true. Scripture does back itself up, if properly read, as she had also indicated.
Have you viewed the video by Paul Washer on her links on the top left side of her main page “Are you saved?“?
I would highly encourage you to take the time to watch that video and provide us your feedback. If you also have the time, review the other 5 links under that one.
Thanks
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Don,
Nope not a Calvinist. Now that doesn’t mean that some of what I believe doesn’t line up with John Calvin. But I don’t even begin to claim I know all that John Calvin taught. I am no more Calvinistic than I am “Lutheristic”, Pauline, or any other person’s creed. I’m not even a Berean Wife follower.
I know I’m wrong many times and totally depraved, plus selfish and self-centered. Please don’t anyone follow me, just look where my fingers are pointing to Christ and His Word.
Actually, I have trouble finding a “denomination” that does not go off on a tangent in some areas. But that doesn’t mean we forsake assembling with our fellow believers for worship just because we don’t all see eye to eye.
A saying around here is:
“The Bible says it, I believe it, that settles it.”
But actually, the way it should be stated is:
“The Bible says it, that settles it, whether I believe it or not.”
Now if you mean Calvinistic as many mean it, then yes, I do believe in Election, the Sovereignty of God, and the Sufficiency of Scripture.
Just because the 1611 KJV is old does not make it better than other well-translated versions. Those that accept no other version, tend to have other errors in their theology. A joke is “If the KJV was good enough for Moses and Paul then it is good enough for me”. Hope you see the error there!
The discussion about what happens when babies or the unborn die has been around for centuries. We won’t resolve it. There are many “Calvinistic” believers who disagree about the issue. The Scripture doesn’t state point blank “Babies who die go to Heaven or to Hell”. Now people can run around all day arguing inferences from other passages but they really can’t be (shouldn’t be
) dogmatic about it. Once we get to heaven that will be resolved for us. It isn’t like there is anything that we can do about the issue anyway.
Now I do believe that the Lord has chosen His elect from the foundation of the world.
Ephesians 1:3-6
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places,
4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
5 he predestined us for adoption through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. ESV
How God chooses to work that out in relation to unborn babies will be up to Him. Who am I to question God?
Job 38:3-5
3 Dress for action like a man; I will question you, and you make it known to me.
4 “Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding.
5 Who determined its measurements—surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it? ESV
Job 40:7-9
7 “Dress for action like a man; I will question you, and you make it known to me.
8 Will you even put me in the wrong? Will you condemn me that you may be in the right?
9 Have you an arm like God, and can you thunder with a voice like his? ESV
Just like Job, I repent of ever thinking I know better than the Lord.
Job 42:1-6
1 Then Job answered the Lord and said:
2 “I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted.
3 ‘Who is this that hides counsel without knowledge?’ Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand, things too wonderful for me, which I did not know.
4 ‘Hear, and I will speak; I will question you, and you make it known to me.’
5 I had heard of you by the hearing of the ear, but now my eye sees you;
6 therefore I despise myself, and repent in dust and ashes.” ESV
Hope that helps.
Berean Wife
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Like the old Texas politician said when some legislators wanted a bi-lingual version of the Bible. “If the King James Bible was good enough for Jesus, it’s good enough for me!”
Don
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Mrs. Berean Wife, I am aware that there are verses that say “us,” “we,” “God’s sheep”, “God’s people,” etc. To me, US means all. When I hear someone say God sent His Son to save us, they don’t mean a select group of pre-destined favorites. That common use of the language applies to ancient days as well.
Calvinists and Predestinationists might use it that way (“Us” meaning those of a certain faith or favored status with God), but that’s about all. Everyone else thinks they get to have God, too, and also a way to heaven. Scripture supports that. I have also seen clear examples in the Bible where “the many” is used to mean “all.”
Many of the verses that people use to claim an exclusiveness with God were written for the Jews. As I read scripture, Jesus, being a Jew, was referring to His fellow Jews when he mentioned “His people,” etc. I’m sure there are some specific exceptions, but for the most part, the way I read it, it’s written for the Jews. It also says the Gentiles don’t have the same need for the law, since it is written in their hearts. That doesn’t mean they don’t need certain laws, but it means the Gentiles already have it. But I am very wary when scripture says one group is favored over another. If I had to assert my opinion, I would say the term “Gentile” meant the rest of the world. The ancient Jews were very steeped in rituals, folklore, and legalism, and that’s one thing you will see Jesus preaching against. You will notice not much of that is mentioned in the New Testament, certainly not as much as in the OT.
But, all of that too, is open to interpretation and opinion. That’s mine.
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Btw….I scrolled up after my last post…to your statement “How God chooses to work that out in relation to unborn babies will be up to Him. Who am I to question God?”
I’ve never said that anybody should question God. I’ve said people sometimes need to question certain “questionable” scriptures to make sure they are in deed in line with the truth. (Test all things, hold fast to what’s good.) If we’ve got scriptures that are in direct contradiction with each other, then both can’t be right. (Using logic is not un-Godly.) If we’ve got scripture that reflects something other than the Holiness, Mercy, and Love of God, I question it. (Read up on the Nicene Council to see how our Bibles came about. About who commissioned the first early Bibles, who decided what to include, what to exclude, and the Bible’s history in general. It is something I’ve never heard taught in church and probably never will. But I will assure you that we don’t have all known scriptures included in any Bible. I will also assure you, in that regard, it is incomplete. That’s why I am hesitant to believe every word our our censured versions, and they are all censured. I’ll bet your husband knows a lot about the Nicene Council. See what he says about it. I’d be interested to hear, too.)
I have total confidence in the perfect wisdom and will of God, but I can’t say the same thing for the man-scribed and man-printed Bible. As even you say, they’ve been correcting the KJV for centuries. They still are. Maybe one day they will get it right. Rather that wait on that, I’ll use resources already available (God gave mankind reason and logic for a purpose.).
I also believe that I can see more of God in one minute of a walk through nature (and it all makes sense), than I can with a week in the Bible. Walk outside…we have instant, tangible, irrefutable evidence of the handy work of the true miracles of the Supreme Creator in a way we will never find in the Bible. It’s one thing to read about it, and it’s a whole ‘nother to experience it. I try to be pretty open minded (but not so open minded that my brain falls out! haha), but I simply cannot understand how ANYONE can see nature and not see an Intelligent Design from a Divine Creator. That some people actually believe that all came from nothing, and given enough time and random chance, that something like our earth and it’s populations of humans and animals…our solar system…galaxy…everything else….would just happen. It doesn’t seem possible for my mind to work that way. So, when I use logic and common sense it works in more ways in favor of God than I suspect you currently realize.
Again…all doctrines aside…we need to understand that the Bible was scribed and printed by men, revised by men to smooth out the mistakes, re-printed, and on and on. If they keep changing it in the future, like they’ve done in the past, who could guess what it might say. If any book, including the Bible, asserts that God is anything less than Holy, and that He refuses to keep His own laws, then I have to question it…the book itself…not God. I will assure you that God will not punish you for seeking the truth, even if it sometimes refutes man-written scripture. Remember, God didn’t personally hand down a printed version of any Bible, straight from His hands. God doesn’t make mistakes, man does. Man, even you will have to agree, “scribed” and printed the Bible, and they are still “perfecting” the KJV, among other versions of other translations. No wonder “religion” is so confusing to the masses!
(I noticed in an earlier post your statement: “The 1611 KJV did have errors (spelling, translation, added verses from copied notes, etc.) and many of them have been corrected over the centuries.” You said “many” of them, not all, and whether you realize it or not, you just agreed with me! I’m not trying to tangle you up in semantics, but I believe you meant what you said. Further, I will agree with another comment of yours concerning the “sufficiency” of the Bible. I, too, believe it is “sufficient” but I don’t believe it’s inerrant. You really don’t have a bad method of using seven Bibles to compare when discerning what you believe. But you can’t do that and maintain a single Bible is perfectly inerrant. I believe there is enough accuracy in the Bible to point us in the general right direction, but I do question some of the details.)
See? We are coming together, at least just a little…
I guess I should now be “Berean Brother” since I’ve been searching the scriptures daily with you here?
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PS….”general right direction.” I didn’t word that to convey what I meant. I meant that the Bible gives us enough true, reliable (and logical) information in general to point us in the right direction.
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Don,
I got behind.
I’ll have to spend some time reading through your comments more closely.
Berean Wife
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Don,
Your words in Bold.
I am aware that there are verses that say “us,” “we,” “God’s sheep”, “God’s people,” etc. To me, US means all. When I hear someone say God sent His Son to save us, they don’t mean a select group of pre-destined favorites. That common use of the language applies to ancient days as well.
Just as in our English Language, “us” and “we” mean different things depending on the context of the sentence. If I tell my son “Tell us why you did that?” when he hit a picture in the den with a ball while my husband and I are talking. Who is “us” referring to? My husband and I, no one else.
If I ask you to tell “us” why you are so hesitant to believe in Scriptures while I’m writing on my blog, then “us” would mean me and any other readers.
So then, you would have to decide who “us” is in every individual case.
God’s Sheep and God’s people always refer to those He has chosen. Just as if I said my goats are going astray would refer to the goats I have chosen as my own. They would not be my neighbors nor goats that choose my farm, I choose them. (My goats were out at midnight last night in the neighbors locked property. We had to climb the fence and lift each goat over the fence to our pasture.
)
Read Ten “Christians” God Will Not Allow Into Heaven and see if everyone gets to God and to go to Heaven.
Many of the verses that people use to claim an exclusiveness with God were written for the Jews. As I read scripture, Jesus, being a Jew, was referring to His fellow Jews when he mentioned “His people,” etc. I’m sure there are some specific exceptions, but for the most part, the way I read it, it’s written for the Jews. It also says the Gentiles don’t have the same need for the law, since it is written in their hearts. That doesn’t mean they don’t need certain laws, but it means the Gentiles already have it. But I am very wary when scripture says one group is favored over another. If I had to assert my opinion, I would say the term “Gentile” meant the rest of the world. The ancient Jews were very steeped in rituals, folklore, and legalism, and that’s one thing you will see Jesus preaching against. You will notice not much of that is mentioned in the New Testament, certainly not as much as in the OT.
The majority of OT verses do say God’s People are the Jews, although there is regular mention of a future people from another flock (the Gentiles). The Gentiles do need the Law, when we hear it we are convicted if the Lord calls us. We are convicted of the law in our hearts, because everyman does have God’s law written own their heart. We do in a sense know how depraved we are even when we deny it. That is why we all believe murder is wrong and that there are right things and wrong things. Man’s heart can be seared (burned and scarred) such that they are insensitive to God’s Law but it is there.
Where not the Jews favored over all others by God? Is not your family favored by you over all others?
If you are not a Jew you are Gentile. If you are not elect then you are not elect.
Parts of the law were done away with the sacrifice of Christ, such as all sacrifices and baptism replaced circumcision.
2nd Comment of yours in this set:
I’ve never said that anybody should question God.
I didn’t say you did, I said that who am “I” to question God. Satan started that by suggesting in the Garden of Eden “Hath God Said…?”
We have to watch questioning scripture and using our wisdom to decide what Truth is and what isn’t. We are not inspired by God like the authors of the books of the Bible nor has God spoken to us and said “I the Lord say…” beyond the Bible.
Just because you think Scriptures contradict does not mean it does it may be your interpretation or even dependant on the audience.
I can go out to eat for lunch. My oldest son could ask what I ate and I could say KFC chicken, knowing he would like the chicken. Then my younger son later could ask for tacos for supper and I could say no I had a taco for lunch. That would seem to contradict wouldn’t it. But actually in Alabama we have KFC / Taco restaurants, so I could eat a piece of KFC chicken and a Taco at the same place and for the same meal. There was no contradiction although it seemed so to others.
If we’ve got scripture that reflects something other than the Holiness, Mercy, and Love of God, I question it.
You left out the Righteous Judgment and the Wrath of God???
The Nicene Council is given more credit than they are due by many, especially skeptics. The cannon of the Old Testament was established before the Birth of Christ. The New Testament was also established by the churches long before the 300’s and the Nicene Council. The Council just Voted on what was already in common usage. As a matter of fact, Peter in the Bible refers to Paul’s writing as Scripture. The apostles recognized each other’s writings as inspired Scripture.
As to never hearing about the formation of the Bibles in church just means you haven’t been in one that stands on the inerrancy of Scripture. My husband teaches where we got our English Bibles several times and to different groups. As a matter of fact, in July we will be having a conference on the English Bible in Gadsden and will be showing antique Bibles and discussing the way our Bibles were handed down to us. Believe me, men died to give us uncensored versions!
Just read some biographies on Luther, Tyndale or Wycliffe and see what they went through in order that you can have a Bible to read in your own language, whether you trust it or not.
There is no translation that is 100% accurate but most of our translations are 99 – 99.5 percent accurate and they do not affect major doctrines. Only the originals were 100% that is why we say that the Bible is inerrant in its Original Autograph (language).
The KJV we have today is not 100% but it is at least 99% accurate. When we get the 99% down pat then we can argue about the other .1 %, but it doesn’t change the doctrines.
I’m glad that you see that God created the universe, the earth and everything in it.
You have a faulty idea of how translations are made. We do not have translations of translations of translations. Translations are made from the original Greek and Hebrew languages. Errors are not increasing they are decreasing. Do you not remember what my husband said about the Dead Sea Scrolls??? How they confirm the Scripture, we had even though they were much older than any manuscript used.
No, I admit that the 1611 KJV is not as accurate as I would like, I don’t use it. The 1769 KJV is the version used by the majority of people who use KJV.
I have never maintained that a single Bible is inerrant just the original languages.
The sum of your problem seems to be that as long as you question the validity of the Bible then you aren’t responsible for obeying it. You are afraid of accepting the Bible as because then you must deal with your own problems. The best defensive is a good offensive. As long as the Bible is wrong than you should be safe.
Judgment will come whether we believe it or not.
Berean Wife
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Berean Wife:
I understand your point on the “us” discussion and all variations. I still don’t agree that it means God’s chosen favorites. Any credible theologian could argue the point in many directions. Nothing compelling in what you said to convince me to change my position.
I have read “Ten Christians” twice before tonight and don’t agree with it. I don’t remember each 1-10 off the top of my head, but I do remember that the whole of it did not convince me to change my position on anything. It basically blocked every possibility of heaven but for those who believe in predestination. I believe in Universal Atonement. Yours is a doctrine of Exclusion, mine is a docrine of Inclusion. The Bible supports that. (I read the 10 again after I composed this reply, and stand firm in what I just said.)
You said: “You left out the Righteous Judgment and the Wrath of God???” Yes I did. Actually, it never crossed my mind. Jesus said he would reward every one according to their works. I believe that. I’ll leave the definition of “Righteous Judgment” and the “Wrath of God” to those who believe it is an essential characteristic of God. I have a sneaking suspicion that “Righteous Judgment” is a code word (in the view of predestinationists) for being top heavy on punishment and torture. It’s probably a sugar coated term that translates that God can torture anyone eternally any way He wants. I understand that you feel that is an essential part of your faith. But you must also understand that countless millions of Christians don’t, and they and their theologians can present just as much scripture as you can to support their position.
I have books that contradict much of what you say on the Nicene Council. They have what I believe to be credible evidence and credible sources. I believe the Nicene Council was organized or created by the Roman Emperor Constantine. The church had not done a very good job at uniting people and doctrines, so Constantine did. Here is a link about it if you are interested, from Wikipedia, which is considered an unbiased source. I also believe that Gentiles weren’t even allowed to join the church before the Council, and if so I would believe more strongly that “us” etc. referred to the Jews. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea
You said: “As to never hearing about the formation of the Bibles in church just means you haven’t been in one that stands on the inerrancy of Scripture.” Again…how do you know what churches I have attended in my life, and that all of them are wrong? I think it is a stretch to say that every trained theologian of every church I’ve ever attended doesn’t believe in inerrancy and doesn’t know what they are talking about. But you do. Interesting thing, at supper tonight a couple sat in front of me and prayed aloud before they ate. We stuck up a conversation and he is a pastor and she is a Bible instructor, specializing in the old Hebrew. They gave evidence after evidence, straight from the Bible, that predestination is misunderstood and is in error if it’s used to say people are doomed to hell before they are even born. I’m sure in your mind these trained theologians are wrong too, but you are not. Yawn.
At least you came off perfect inerrancy and it’s down to around 99% now. I never listed a percentage, I just said the Bible is not perfectly inerrant and now you agree with me. (I’m not trying to trap you in words, I know we don’t see eye to eye on that, but at least you admit that no Bible is perfect.)
You said: “You have a faulty idea of how translations are made. We do not have translations of translations of translations. Translations are made from the original Greek and Hebrew languages. Errors are not increasing they are decreasing. Do you not remember what my husband said about the Dead Sea Scrolls??? How they confirm the Scripture, we had even though they were much older than any manuscript used.”
My reply…Yes we do have translations of translations, etc. Further, my scripture and beliefs are every bit as credible as yours. This elite predestinationist superiority seems to rob you of objectivity. One time you said the 1611 KJV has been revised several times…to me that means translations of translations. We know that some of that original scripture was translated from the original into Latin and then into English, and that in itself is a translation of a translation of a tranlsation. I think so far in all this we’ve referred to four different KJV editions, and they are still revising it. Some consider the latest “translation” a translation from old English to modern English. Here, you say errors are decreasing instead of increasing. Thank goodness. At least we agree there were errors and the inerrant word of God is getting more and more inerrant by the century.
Yes I remember what your husband said about the Dead Sea Scrolls, and they are believed to be hidden away to not be included in the Bible. There’s some debate on that. They were found, what was left of them, in a cave in the 1940’s I believe and they are incomplete. Many today feel they are heretical in places. Others think they should have been part of the original Bible, and would have been if the church leaders had known about them. I cant imagine if they are important to the credibility of the Bible why God would hide them all these centuries. Great debates abound on the DSC’s. I haven’t read them all, but I do know they sometimes express different views than traditional Biblical views. If they substantiate the early Bible maybe someone will include them in the next revision of the KJV.
“The sum of my problem” as you call it, rests solely in that I do not agree with you. I could easily say you have a problem and are too dogmatic to be objective and credible…but that would be impolite and I won’t say it. But I’m still amazed at your clairvoyance and all these “problems” you seem to have conjured up for me. “As long as the Bible is wrong you (me) should be safe.” I can easily banter and say “as long as you get to pick the scriptures that suit your agenda and ignore the ones I chose, you will be safe.”
Come on Mrs. Berean. This is going nowhere. I will make this final “offer.” If you can produce ANY Bible that is perfectly inerrant and I can totally trust all scripture contained within….and produce to me ONE singular doctrine that all scripture supports and no scripture contridicts, then I will accept it. Now that’s a fair offer. I’m leaving the door wide open for you to prove me wrong once and for all.
Berean Brother
PS, judgement will come, as you say, and you may be surprised at how much nicer God is than what you’ve been taught. Can you simply not picture God without the cruelty? Is that an essential characteristic of God for the predestinationists?
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Don,
God’s attributes are difficult for us as humans to comprehend. We don’t want to be confronted by God’s Holy Inerrant Word. People want to feel comfortable they don’t want to feel uneasy about an all loving God.
Paul commands us to “”preach the word; be ready in season {and} out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction.” (NASB) 2 Tim. 4:2
God’s Wrath is perfect just as His Love and Righteousness is perfect. He does not Love more than He is wrathful. We need to consider the whole counsel of God and not just pick and choose the things that make us feel good.
Paul makes it clear that we must “reprove, rebuke, exhort” “For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires” (NASB) 2 Tim. 3:4
Paul is clearly teaching in 2 Timothy that we are to preach God’s Word fully and patiently.
In 2 Timothy 3:16 Paul states “All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;”
God cannot lie “in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie,” (NASB) Titus 1:2
So if God cannot lie, and all scripture is inspired by God, then all of scripture is true.
Nothing God has revealed to us in Scripture is irrelevant. Since God chose to inspire all of the Biblical authors, for all future generations, preserve the content of the Scripture, and He also commanded His Word to be taught to people of all nations, then we are not in a position to allow ourselves to make the final judement of its relevance.
With that said, God’s word is Truth and everything contained within it is true and is profitable and we should not avoid any of it. We may not be able to understand every statement made, we should not avoid something we don’t understand or if it makes us afraid of dealing with the truth that a particular verse shows us about ourselves.
We need all of God’s Word now and for our future generations.
We ask “Why do bad things happen to good people?”. This is a very man centered question. The object is “me”. We don’t want to accept the fact that a good loving God wouldn’t do these kinds of things. The question we need to ask ourselves is “Why does God allow me to live, when I am such a sinful being?”. Yes, He gives His mercy to each and everyone of us even though there is “none who does good, no not one”, “there is none who seek after God”.
We are put on this earth for one and one thing only, God’s Glory. “Whether, then, you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.” 1 Cor 10:31
That’s it, the bottom line, Christ is to be our focus, we are to look upon Him and let Him live is us and through us.
Do you understand what God did to Christ on the cross? He (Jesus) just wasn’t punished for our sins, He became sin. The cup that He asked to be taken away from Him was the cup of God’s Holy and Perfect Wrath. Jesus took all of the wrath of God, a wrath that was to be poured out on us as judgement for our evil, sinful life. He was the only one who could have done that for us. We are save from God’s Wrath and I am so thankful that there is NOTHING I can do to work hard enough, go to church enough, tithe enough, nothing can I do to save myself from His wrath BUT to depend 100% on the work that Christ did for ME! Praise be to God the He did this for ME! AMEN!
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Don,
As a follow up to what I commented on here…
What do you think happens to a person when they die?
Is there a heaven or a hell?
If so, who determines who will go to heaven and hell?
What are the criteria to go to heaven?
What are the criteria to go to hell?
Just curious your thoughts.
Thanks!
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Don,
Your words bold.
I don’t know why you keep arguing with me. Your issue is with God and His Word. I am just directing you to read the whole Bible.
Your issue with Ten “Christians” God Will Not Allow Into Heaven is something you must take up with God because that is His Words.
No, I do not believe God is “heavy” on punishment. He is very heavy and lavish with His grace or we would be destroyed immediately. He even exhibits Grace to those who hate Him and His Word by allowing them to continue for the present time.
As to the comment about the Nicean Council you can believe whatever you wish. But you are wrong, Gentiles were part of the Church from the beginning and recorded all through the New Testament.
The Bible was God delivered through His prophets and apostles and is inerrant in the original autographs (languages).
Our literal translations today are 99% or more accurate and no possible error effects essential doctrines.
Before we had access to ease of travel, cameras, and multiple old copies that have been found, Bibles were sometimes translated from the Latin because they did not have access to originals. Today our literal translations have been compared and translated from the original languages even as older manuscripts are found.
Many Bibles have been edited and updated to update the language. You could have not read an original 1611 KJV since the letters were used differently, v’s for u’s, f’s for s’s, i’s for j’s etc.. There is a difference between revising the spelling and translating.
You can twist my words but do not twist my husband’s re-read what he said about the Dead Sea Scrolls! Or you can come to the Gadsden Bible Conference and hear an authority talk about them.
I still believe:
The sum of your problem seems to be that as long as you question the validity of the Bible then you aren’t responsible for obeying it. You are afraid of accepting the Bible as because then you must deal with your own problems.
Your argument is with God and the Bible not me.
I was going to ask you the same questions RW did so thankfully he saved me from having to type them.
“As long as the Bible is wrong you (me) should be safe.” I can easily banter and say “as long as you get to pick the scriptures that suit your agenda and ignore the ones I chose, you will be safe.”
Actually, I win either way.
Because aren’t you are saying that God is merciful and won’t send anyone to Hell? I don’t have to worry with your method but if what I’ve pointed out from Scripture is correct then woe to you. Are you willing to accept that you just might be wrong? There will be Hell as the payment!
If you can produce ANY Bible that is perfectly inerrant and I can totally trust all scripture contained within….and produce to me ONE singular doctrine that all scripture supports and no scripture contridicts, then I will accept it.
As I have said repeatedly you can trust the ESV, NKJV, NASB, and the KJV all are sufficient and reliable for any Bible study purpose and for doctrine. If you want, you can always use a variety to widen your study, but it will not change the doctrines.
All of Scripture supports all of God’s doctrine and no Scripture contradicts His doctrine. Now there is no man perfectly able to interpret the Bible. No man is perfect but God’s word is perfectly, sufficient for all our needs.
As for actual doctrine:
2 Corinthians 5:21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. ESV
1 Corinthians 15:3-7
3 … Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures,
4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures,
5 and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve.
6 Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep.
7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. ESV
You will benefit from seriously studying the whole Bible using any of the literal translations, such as an ESV.
Berean Wife
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Gosh, you are double teaming me! It would take a week to reply to all this…but I’ll try, but I can’t reply to every single thing or it would take pages! I’ll try to have something tonight or tomorrow for you.
Don
“Defending the rightousness, grace, and love of God, unconditionally to all people, no matter what the Bible says!”
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Don,
Sorry, I was occupied all day. RW had posted while I was gone.
Just one simple answer and topic at a time works better. My brain is getting slow.
“Defending the rightousness, grace, and love of God, unconditionally to all people, no matter what the Bible says!”
Where did you get any idea about God if you can’t trust the Bible?
Berean Wife
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Well, for one thing I have a reasonable amount of observation, and I see God every day, in many ways, and although I can’t physically visit with Him face to face, we do talk, He does give me answers, and I see irrefutable evidence of His wonderful works virtually every where I look.
Don
“Test all things and hold fast to what’s good.”
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Don,
If that is your criteria, how do you know whether to worship Jesus, Buddha or Mohamed?
Berean Wife
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Because I never heard or had any reason to believe that Buddha or Mohamed were considered saviors of anything. Further, they never claimed to be. They had philosophy and doctrines, but that’s about it. Some of it is actually pretty good. For example, Confucius, who you left out, wrote the “Golden Rule” centuries before the scribes of the Bible did. Does that make him a Prophet like the ones in the Bible who wrote it later?
Don
“Asserting that Jesus is more powerful that Buddha and Mohamed, and REAL truth is more powerful that a flawed, man-scribed Bible.”
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Don,
Where did you hear about Jesus? Surely not from what you perceive as a flawed Bible! Why do you need a Savior? Where did you get that idea? You see where it leads when you throw out trusting the Bible? Where did you get your information other than from the Bible?
You are digging yourself deeper and showing how really little you know about the Bible.
Confucius existed in the 500-400 BC range so if he said similar to the Golden Rule he stole it from the Bible. Confucius is a false prophet of which we have been warned.
Acts 13:6-10
6 When they had gone through the whole island as far as Paphos, they came upon a certain magician, a Jewish false prophet named Bar-Jesus.
7 He was with the proconsul, Sergius Paulus, a man of intelligence, who summoned Barnabas and Saul and sought to hear the word of God.
8 But Elymas the magician (for that is the meaning of his name) opposed them, seeking to turn the proconsul away from the faith.
9 But Saul, who was also called Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, looked intently at him
10 and said, “You son of the devil, you enemy of all righteousness, full of all deceit and villainy, will you not stop making crooked the straight paths of the Lord? ESV
Leviticus was written down around 1450 BC by Moses when God gave him the Law on Mt Sinai.
Leviticus 19:18 You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against the sons of your own people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord. ESV
Leviticus 19:34 You shall treat the stranger who sojourns with you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God. ESV
Just in case you argue that it wasn’t in the Old Testament, Jesus even pointed out it was in the Law and Prophets.
Matthew 7:12 “So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets. ESV
Luke 6:31-36
31 And as you wish that others would do to you, do so to them.
32 “If you love those who love you, what benefit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them.
33 And if you do good to those who do good to you, what benefit is that to you? For even sinners do the same.
34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, to get back the same amount.
35 But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return, and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he is kind to the ungrateful and the evil.
36 Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful. ESV
“Asserting that Jesus is more powerful that Buddha and Mohamed, and REAL truth is more powerful that a flawed, man-scribed Bible.”
Where did you get that truth if you discredit the Bible?
Berean Wife
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Slow down! Y’all won’t give me time to answer one long list, before another one is posted!
Don
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Digging myself deeper? Scroll up. I said specifically:
“I will make this final “offer.” If you can produce ANY Bible that is perfectly inerrant and I can totally trust all scripture contained within….and produce to me ONE singular doctrine that all scripture supports and no scripture contridicts, then I will accept it. Now that’s a fair offer. I’m leaving the door wide open for you to prove me wrong once and for all.”
Now, you’ve overloaded me with so many allegations and questions it’s not possible to answer them as fast as y’all are asking them. Until you repy specifically to my offer I am not going to answer anything else, other that what I am writing in reply to JW. You skipped right over this and continued on another long diatribe that we’ve been over time and again.
Produce the perfectly accurate Bible and the perfectly accurate doctrine that is supported by all scripture and refuted by none and I’ll accept it.
Don
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Don,
I did answer.
If you can produce ANY Bible that is perfectly inerrant and I can totally trust all scripture contained within….and produce to me ONE singular doctrine that all scripture supports and no scripture contridicts, then I will accept it.
As I have said repeatedly you can trust the ESV, NKJV, NASB, and the KJV all are sufficient and reliable for any Bible study purpose and for doctrine. If you want, you can always use a variety to widen your study, but it will not change the doctrines.
All of Scripture supports all of God’s doctrine and no Scripture contradicts His doctrine. Now there is no man perfectly able to interpret the Bible. No man is perfect but God’s word is perfectly, sufficient for all our needs.
As for actual doctrine:
2 Corinthians 5:21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. ESV
1 Corinthians 15:3-7
3 … Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures,
4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures,
5 and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve.
6 Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep.
7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. ESV
You will benefit from seriously studying the whole Bible using any of the literal translations, such as an ESV.
Who are you to question God and His Word and His Perfection?
Berean Wife
Now I’m going to bed.
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Sorry, no cigar. You listed four different Bibles. You never did list a specific doctrine that all scripture supports and none refute.
But as to the rest…I don’t see that we disagree on most of the points you made…specifically.
1. “2 Corinthians 5:21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. ESV” I agree with that, if “our sake” means every one.
2. “Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures.” I also agree if “our” means all. I believe the Ressurection part you quote is in accordance with true scriptures.
3. “that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures” Agree. I’ve never said otherwise.
4. “and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve.” I have no reason to doubt that. So…another “Agree.”
5. “Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep.” Same answer as above.
6. “Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles.” Same answer as above.
I don’t see where I’ve ever disagreed with any of that. But you still didn’t produced one Bible, one doctrine, etc. as requested.
Don
“Defending the righteousnss, grace, and love of God, unconditionally for all people, no matter what the Bible says.”
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BTW…I also said earlier that I can agree with you on the “sufficiency” of the Bible. All I said was that I don’t believe it is perfectly accurate in all things, and therefore is not inerrant. You seemed to agree, at least somewhat, by stating it is around 99% accurate, but not 100%. I never listed a percentage, but mine would be much, much lower that 99%.
The private group that has given out more free Bibles than anyone I know, the Gideons, deleted the entire Old Testament. The only Gideon Bibles I remember were the New Testament only versions. They may have done the whole thing too, but I don’t remember it. The huge majority of what I don’t agree with is in the OT anyway.
And yes, I know you replied, but you didn’t meet the challenge with one Bible, one doctrine, etc. And besides y’all are throwing so many questions at me now, it’s not possible to answer them as fast as y’all are posting them. Play fair!
Don
John 3:17. “For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.”
1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit.”
1 Timothy 2:5-6, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.”
1 John 4:14, “And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.”
Hebrews 2:9, “But we see Jesus…that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.”
2 Corinthians 5:14-15, “For the love of Christ constraineth us…And that he died for all…”
John 1:29, “…Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.”
1 John 2:2, “And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”
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Don,
You have made many pronouncements as facts that are wrong such as the Confucius statement.
Then you stated this about Gideon’s:
The private group that has given out more free Bibles than anyone I know, the Gideons, deleted the entire Old Testament. The only Gideon Bibles I remember were the New Testament only versions. They may have done the whole thing too, but I don’t remember it. The huge majority of what I don’t agree with is in the OT anyway.
Which is incorrect and they would be quite offended to hear you say: “…the Gideons, deleted the entire Old Testament.”
The fact is:
The Gideon’s have printed both NT and NT, Psalms, and Proverbs and also full Bibles. The Bibles in hotel rooms, hospitals, and doctor’s offices are provided by Gideon’s, 1.3 billion so far. Those are usually always full Bibles. My husband while waiting for lab work yesterday read from a (full) Gideon’s Bible at the doctor’s office.
You have been shown to be wrong several times and yet you still claim the authority to choose for yourself what Scriptures are true and accurate.
Berean Wife
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Don,
I gave you a choice of several versions to read from. You would be greatly blessed if you read and believed any of them.
I am using the ESV lately because the order of the words is similar to the KJV with the older terms translated to English instead of Old English. But I use a variety as I have stated.
I gave you one doctrine you just won’t accept it.
Here is a summary of the Bible – no Bible contradicts it.
God created the world and all that is in it. Man returned the favor by rejecting God and doing things their way. Man’s heart is totally wicked and no pure thought is in it. Yet, God sent His Son into the world to save His chosen from the punishment due them for their sins. Those God has given His Son will not be lost but saved, those that are not His Son’s will suffer eternal torment.
Your job is to:
2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test! ESV
Berean Wife
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Don,
The intention here is to “prick” you or “cut” you to the heart. You may just get mad but I pray you respond as those in Acts did.
Acts 2:37-39
37 Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”
38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.” ESV
You think too highly of yourself and your opinion. The following are just a few of your “I” statements where you point out that you are the judge and jury on what is “believable” and true in the Bible. While repeatedly, I have stated that I believe the Bible and even if I don’t understand all of it I still believe it. Who am I to tell God what happened, I wasn’t there, He was?
You have said:
In my view…
All I can do is state my opinion…
I do believe in many, many verses…
I do not believe that God…
I also do not believe that a donkey…
I do not believe that Aaron…
I do not believe that Pharoah’s men…
I do not believe God…
I strongly suggest…
As a rational person I do not believe in talking snakes or donkeys…
I don’t know any rational, objective person who truly believes in them…
I do not think rational thinking…
I follow another verse that I do believe…
I say again…
I gave a good and irrefutable…
…there are some verses I do not believe,…
…there are others that I do believe…
You are your own god and you are the authority in your religion, but you are not a follower of the Jesus Christ in the Bible. You have created your own god and “jesus” out of your own opinions.
The Jesus Christ of the NT repeatedly referred to the OT Scriptures often using the term Law and the Prophets, which was the general term for the 39 books of the OT Scripture. These are just general statements about the Scriptures but there are many, many more where Jesus quoted the OT.
Matthew 5:17-19
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. ESV
Matthew 22:29 But Jesus answered them, “You are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God. ESV
You are trusting in yourself and wise in your own eyes.
Proverbs 3:5-7
5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding.
6 In all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make straight your paths.
7 Be not wise in your own eyes; fear the Lord, and turn away from evil. ESV
Berean Wife
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Don,
So forget all other questions.
How did you become the authority higher than God and able to determine God’s Word and what He said? Choosing to throw out His OT because you question it???
Who are you to tell God donkeys can’t talk when He made them?
Berean Wife
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The doctrine you gave is not supported by many verses, including the ones I listed above. If yours was the only doctrine the Bible presents, then everyone would be whatever domination you are, which you never really identified. You said Bible believing Christian, so that is broad. I said much earlier that I know there are many scriptures that mention the elect. I also just listed several verses that say “All,” not “Elected.” Every verse in the Bible doesn’t support election. You still haven’t given me one doctrine that other verses don’t contradict, you only give the one you personally believe.
Calm down about the Gideons. I said I wasn’t sure if the Gideons had printed full versions or not. I said that to give the benefit of the doubt in case they printed full versions. I said the ones I remembered were NT only. The version I have is NT only, so they left out, or deleted, the whole OT. Unless you are asking me to not believe my own eyes.
I can agree with your Corinthians verse. It says to me that “Jesus Christ is in you” and I believe that applies to everyone born unless, as it says “ye be reprobates” which to me concerns people who reject Jesus.
Your job is to: Be willing to “see” (whether you believe or not) the views of others, and that the Bible contradicts itself on critical points of salvation (election vs a God for all).
Don
1 John 2:2, “And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”
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As to: “How did you become the authority higher than God and able to determine God’s Word and what He said? Choosing to throw out His OT because you question it???”
Is it possible for you to see things as they are, and not just the way you want them to be? I never said I was an authority higher than God, and never implied it. You are “imagining” again. I didn’t say He threw out the OT, I said the Gideons printed versions of the Bible and THEY “threw it out” (to use your terms). Are you not reading anything I say in the way I say it?
“Who are you to tell God donkeys can’t talk when He made them?”
I NEVER SAID NOR IMPLIED that I told God anything about donkeys! This is getting childish. Since you are back on the talking donkeys again, now I do hope God will give you eyes to see accurately. I NEVER said, nor implied, what you just claimed I did….telling God anything, for that matter. You can’t even paraphrase me correctly here, and are continually making up things you claim I said, or implied. If you can’t get that right, what makes me think you are getting something as complex as the Bible right all the time? Try as you might, I’m not letting you get away with attributing things to me that I didn’t say or imply. If you are going to be such an ambassador for truth, at least get what I say here right.
Now…NO MORE making up stuff and claiming it’s what I said, implied, or believe. As you said a few days ago, “you imagine” I believe this or that. As I replied, you can “imagine” anything you want, but if this whole exchange is about your imagination then we are wasting time.
Don
Praying for patience, and I need it now!
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Don,
All your quotes bold.
I NEVER said, nor implied, what you just claimed I did….telling God anything, for that matter. You can’t even paraphrase me correctly here, and are continually making up things you claim I said, or implied. If you can’t get that right, what makes me think you are getting something as complex as the Bible right all the time? Try as you might, I’m not letting you get away with attributing things to me that I didn’t say or imply. If you are going to be such an ambassador for truth, at least get what I say here right..
All your own quotes:
The huge majority of what I don’t agree with is in the OT anyway.
I also do not believe that a donkey actually had a conversation with a person, as is documented in detail in Numbers 22. I do not believe that Aaron threw down a walking stick and it turned into a real, live snake that ate other snakes, and turned back into a walking stick again. From this same story, I do not believe that Pharoah’s men threw down their walking sitcks and by using their “magic arts” they turned into real live snakes also.
If we’ve got scripture that reflects something other than the Holiness, Mercy, and Love of God, I question it.
But I will assure you that we don’t have all known scriptures included in any Bible. I will also assure you, in that regard, it is incomplete. That’s why I am hesitant to believe every word our our censured versions, and they are all censured.
You have disparaged and contradicted the OT Scriptures continually. Yet you accuse me of twisting your words and saying what you did not say or imply?
You do not believe in the Bible or the Jesus of the Bible but only the god you’ve created in your own head.
I will be glad to discuss any verses you have trouble with but I am not interested in your “opinions” as to how you can pick and choose from the Bible what you deem “rational”, “reliable”, and worthy while dismissing the rest.
Your only hope is that the Lord will open your eyes to see the truth of Scripture.
1 Corinthians 2:12-14
12 Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God.
13 And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.
14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. ESV
Praying that the Lord will be merciful to you and open your eyes.
Berean Wife
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I scrolled up and saw your long list of things I said that disturb you. As long as they are in context I stand by every one of them. Your technique was interesting and I thought I’d use it also.
You have said:
1. “I would then imagine that you believe that there is no Hell and no final judgment as they are referred to in the Bible.” This is not about your imagination.
2. “Faith is not logical.” Not yours, anyway.
3. “Don’t take anything we say for truth.” Oh really?
4. “You (Don) said concerning miracles: “ …I don’t know any rational, objective person who truly believes in them…”
That is taken out of context and does not convey what I said and you know it. When I caught you quoting me out of context you said: “The full sentence was: “I don’t know any rational, objective person who truly believes in them (my reference was to mythological animals), or that all the kingdoms of the earth, even in that day, could be seen from one mountain top. Just prior to that you did mention some names of animals most specifically from the KJV version…”
Yes I did, and you twisted it from what I said to fit your own agenda, which is to prove me wrong, no matter what. You later repented and said: “Please accept my apologies if I was not accurate in my understanding of your views. I willingly stand corrected if I did twist your words.” Well you did and you know you did, and you stand corrected.
5. “We should all sharpen and encourage one another in our walk, as long as we do it all with grace and mercy.” If you really believe that, it sure isn’t reflected in the exchange above.
6. “The hard part is to understand that God sent His beloved Son to die a horribly cruel death for sinners who hated Him and eagerly killed Him. That sir, is hard to believe!”
Oh really? You have a hard time believing Christ died for your sins? But you don’t have a hard time believing in talking animals? “Talking donkeys are easy to believe in.” Yes…especially in a psychiatric ward.
(By the way…were those He died for that “hated Him and eagerly killed him” predestined to heaven also? From what you just said, people can hate Jesus and still go to heaven because of His atonement on the cross. That’s exactly what you said.)
7. Scripture is inerrant. “We don’t want to be confronted by God’s Holy Inerrant Word.”
8. Scripture is not inerrant. “The KJV we have today is not 100% but it is at least 99% accurate.” (And you determined the percentage based on nothing but opinion.)
Therefore, scripture is neither, not being 100% nor 0%, but somewhere in between? Like 99% as long as you get to pick the Bible?
9. “Those who claim that the 1611 was inspired and inerrant and better than all other Scriptures versions are wrong and deceived.” (Now we’re down to 0%)
It’s amazing that you question me on faith in certain questionable scriptures, and there you convey that you don’t believe at all in the 1611, which I brought into the conversation because many predestinationists say it is the most accurate version availabe and they only use IT. According to you, I should then not believe their doctrine on predestination, since it all came from the 1611, which you say is wrong and they have been deceived? Absolutely amazing. I can believe in the logic of talking donkeys easier than that.
10. “…but test everything; hold fast what is good. ESV” (That was the verse I listed…you followed with, and in context…) “Is a wise verse but how do you determine what is good? By comparing it to Scripture.”
Really? Compare scripture to scripture to determine the truth? I’ve been doing that all through this and you keep reading with one eye shut.
Ok, let’s compare scripture to scripture to determine the truth, just like you said. Of these two, which is correct?
Exodus 20:13 “Thou shalt not kill.”
Exodus 32:27 “Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour. (Or worse, 1 Sam 15:3: “Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.”)
Which is true? God commands not to kill, or God commands TO kill. Are people to not kill for the sake of the Lord, or are they supposed TO kill for God? Which is it? Let’s put it to your iron-clad, infallible test determining the truth by comparing scripture. Which is true? Or is it maybe somewhere in the middle, like don’t kill unless God tells you to, and if you do…don’t forget to kill the babies while you’re at it.
That’s just ten examples. I finally got tired of reading through your contradictions, and have quoted enough.
But my favorite is still: “Don’t take anything we say for truth.”
OK, I’ll take your advice on that.
Don
“Defending the rightousness, mercy, and love of God, unconditionally to all people.”
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Don,
If you’d be so kind as to engage in a little conversation with me I’d greatly appreciate your attention to the matter of which I am about to discuss. I have published a few responses for you and there has been no response. Hopefully, you read this, you probably won’t as there has been no reply from you yet, but I am encouraged by your willingness to continue the conversation with Berean Wife.
Berean Wife has done a tremendous job in discussing the truths of the Bible, God’s inerrant Word with you and I feel at this time you and I need to have a little chat.
Do you consider yourself to be a good person?
Let’s see if that is really true, ok? Let’s discuss the problem of Sin because I am sure you would agree that “Christ died for our sins.” 1 Corinthians 15:3 Sin is a universal problem. We see evidence of it everywhere. The new stations and news papers would be out of business if it wasn’t for sin.
“For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.” Ecclesiastes 7:20
“Sin is the transgression of the law.” 1 John 3:4
Have you ever told a lie?
That’s a fair question isn’t it? Even if it was a small lie when you were a child….
You have? Great, me too. What does that make you? ….
Begins with “L”… What would you call me since I have told many lies? … That’s right a liar.
Have you ever stolen something, no matter the size or value of the item? Of course you have, we all have.
What do you call someone who steals? That’s right- good- a thief.
Have you ever used God’s word as a filthy cuss word? Have you ever used it flippantly? Ever taken the name of the Lord in vain?
Yeah? Me too. That’s called blasphemy. Very serious. That’s the third commandment.
Ok, here’s one that really got me. Have you ever looked at a woman with lust? That’s a hard one isn’t is? I am sure you have we are human after all aren’t we? We men have issues with lust right?
Jesus said “You have heard that it was said, ‘YOU SHALLL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY’; but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart” (NASB) Matthew 5:27-28
Boy that one really got me. Have you ever done that? Yeah, I am sure you have.
Well Don, by your own admission you are a lying, thieving, blasphemer adulterer at heart.
Now Don, we have only looked at 4 of the 10 commandments. But if God were to judge you by these 4, and you have already admitted that you are guilty. Would you go to heaven or hell?
Heaven? Now common Don, you admitted to lying, and God is a just and righteous judge, He won’t let you in. You know what you just did Don? You broke the 2nd command! You created a God in your own image. Yep, a loving good God who is going to overlook your sin and that’s not the God of the Bible.
Yeah I know…. You’ve done a lot of good things, helped a lot of people. Won’t my good outweigh my bad? God says “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” Matthew 5:48
Don, The standard is God Himself. God’s holiness demands perfection! “For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.” Romans 3:23
So Don, as you can see sin disqualifies us from getting to heaven on our own ability.
If we were to use the Grand Canyon as an example where we are one side and God and His perfection is on the other side and we had to jump across to the other side, no doubt some would jump farther than others. But we would ALL fall shore of making it across. Make sense? This is true in our spiritual lives as well.
So, if God’s standard is absolute perfection and all have sinned- how many would make it to heaven on their own ability, Don? None, Zero!
Now let’s take a look at the penalty for sin.
As we noted, and you agree with and understand, “Christ died for our sins.” 1 Corinthians 15:3. That is what we are celebrating this Glorious weekend- Christ’s death, burial and resurrection.
But why did Christ die for our sins? Good question huh? It is because there is a penalty for our sins and someone has to pay it.
It is a just penalty. “For the wages of sin is death.” Romans 6:23. Just as you earn wages at your job your wages for your sin is death. Now we know everyone dies, so what is this death that the Bible is speaking of? “And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.” Romans 20:14
This second death Don, is separation from God in the lake of fire and this is a punishment and judgment that we deserve.
But RW, that seems so harsh. Is it really necessary? Yes Don, it is.
“A God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is He.” Deuteronomy 32:4
“Shall not the judge of all the earth do right.” Genesis 18:25
The truth of the matter is Don, we want a God who is right, just and holy. If God overlooked your sin and let you into heaven, would that be justice? No it wouldn’t.
Justice demands that sin be judged.
Don, the Bible says that “the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8.
“but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.” Hebrews 13:4
That’s you Don.
Let’s face it, that not good news.
GOD’S HOLINESS DEMANDS PERFECTION.
GOD’S JUSTICE DEMANDS JUDGEMENT
Don, if you died right now, where would you go? Does that concern you?
“Christ died for our sins.” 1 Corinthians 15:3
This is the good news of the Gospel.
God’s holiness will not tolerate sin.
God’s justice must judge sin.
But Don, God’s love provided a way to satisfy His own holiness and justice. You know what He did Don… “But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.” Romans 5:8
Who is Christ? He is God! Matthew 1:23 states is “God with us”- He was God in the flesh.
Christ died for our sins. But what did that accomplish?
Christ suffered the judgment WE DESERVE.
“And the Lord hath laid on Him the iniquity of us all.” Isaiah 53:6
“Who His own self bare our sins in His own body on the tree.” 1 Peter 2:24
“…When He had by Himself purged our sins.” Hebrews 1:3
Christ payment is in full….”It is finished.” John 19:30
Since your sin Don was paid in full, is there anything left for you to pay?
“An the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanseth us from all sin.” 1 John 1:7
Don, this means past, present and future sin. His righteousness is credited to your account.
2 Corinthians 5:21 “For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.”
You sin was credited to Christ so that His righteousness might be credited to you.
Now this is where the rubber meets the road so to speak Don.
Who can believe?
“For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.” Romans 10:13
But what does it mean to call upon the name of the Lord?
“How then shall they call upon Him in whom they have not believed?” Romans 10:14
The truth of the matter Don is not the act of praying, but belief or faith in the heart.
“Repent ye and believe the gospel” Mark 1:15
This is not just common faith Don. Common faith understands and agrees with what I just mentioned. And I think you probably do, don’t you Don?
“And devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou are the Christ the Son of God.” Luke 4:41
Demons aren’t going to be allowed to heaven now are they, so you can see that is just isn’t believing about Jesus – you mush believe in Jesus.
You must repent (turn away from your sin) and put your dependence for salvation on Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord of your life.
For example…If you were to sit on two chairs at the same time you are depending on both chairs. You need to depend entirely on a single chair. If you are depending on both chairs, this would show a mistrust in either chair. So depending on Jesus plus baptism, Jesus plus church, Jesus plus good works, Jesus plus anything show that you are mistrusting Christ alone.
A split trust is mistrust.
What do you get if you believe?
Forgiveness of sins. “Whosoever believeth in Him shall receive remission (forgiveness) of sins” Acts 10:43
Credited Righteousness. “But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.” Romans 4:5
Everlasting Life. “He that believeth on Me [Jesus Christ] hath everlasting life.” John 6:47
Based upon the Bible- God’s Holy, Perfect, Inerrant Word you must depend 100% on Jesus Christ to save you from sin and hell. He will save you if you are willing to be saved.
“He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” John 3:18
The question is Don, are you willing to depend 100% on the finished work of Jesus Christ?
If you are, pray and ask Him to save you and then depend on Him. He will do it because He promised it in His Word!
“And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of My hand.” John 10:28
John 16:8 KJV “And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:”
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RW, I’m not responding to anything else until my last reply is posted. It says it is still under moderation. Yours followed mine and is already moderated and posted. I cannot adequately respond to anything if all of my replies are not being posted. Win through censorship? If she won’t post this like the previous one, maybe she will email it to you. If she does, reply, and I will answer there.
There is no need for me spend all this time trying to answer both of you and this endless mountain of question and then it not get posted.
Don
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Don,
I have no clue what your previous post is supposed to say. Nor do I have any clue what your point is in all of this. The point I have gotten is you don’t trust the Bible but then you can trust Jesus to save you.
I have herded goats all day today. Don’t have time to respond right now. I have to shepherd and feed my sheep right now. (Five of them.)
RW gets instant approval because he is trust worthy and I know he won’t lead others astray. Unknowns must always be moderated.
Berean Wife
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Well, you got it wrong again. You both imply I’m going to hell without knowing much at all about me other that some postings here. So far, I’ve been accused of:
1. Not being saved.
2. Not believing in the ressurection.
3. Re-writing the Bible like Thomas Jefferson did.
4. I’ve been called a liar.
5. I’ve been called a whore-mongeror.
6. I’ve been call an adulturer.
7. Further, you’ve both attributed quotes to me I never said.
8. You’ve asked so many questions that it would be humanly impossible to answer them all unless I spend 8 hours a day here.
9. The last reply I made never got posted.
10. You don’t seem to read what I say half the time and reflect on much of it accurately.
I see no purpose in doing this anymore. There’s no need for me to try to respond to all these allegations and then it doesn’t get posted, or before I can reply to one diatribe then another comes in. What I say is sometimes taken out of context, and the list goes on.
The only issue on salvation that I don’t agree with you on is pre-destination, in that some are automatically excluded from the possibility of heaven no matter what they do or believe. Then, I’ve seen both of you post things that indicate indirectly that you don’t either.
I’ve never doubted God, but I doubt the Bible in certain scriptures where it contradicts itself or attributes unHoly characteristics to God. I mentioned some of that in the reply you wouldn’t post.
You say the 1611 is wrong and deceiving, and that is basically all I am saying, applied to in certain scripture in other Bibles. I asked you to produce a totally perfect Bible and one singular doctrine from it that all scriptures support and none refute. You never did that.
You post your own list of quotes and challenge me on them, and when I reply likewise you won’t post it.
This started off fairly productively but it’s not any more and I’ve had enough. I had several replies that I was working on and had to save in other documents because you wouldn’t give me time to reply to one mountain of questions before you sent in another.
Enough is enough. I tried to tell you a while back, and I quoted scripture to back it up, on the dangers of arguing scripture. There’s been an incessant barrage ever since.
If any of you want to discuss this further you can email me.
Don
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Don,
You are a hoot.
You commented at 3:10 PM and by 8:14 were jumping up and down mad because “I cannot adequately respond to anything if all of my replies are not being posted. Win through censorship?
That is too funny. In that time frame this is what I was doing:
1. Goats out.
2. Goats in neighbors locked fence again.
3. Neighbor not home.
4. Proceed to catch and throw over fence as many baby goats as we can. They are jumpers and like cats land on their feet.
5. Try to lead moma goat to hole in fence but she lays down and screams instead (Nubian!).
6. Push, pull, cajoled moma through hole.
7. Repair fence.
8. Look for missing Great Pyrenees and decide she got out in the process.
9. Catch moma again and lock in stall to wean babies. Plan to sell Monday.
10. Make turkey burrito wraps.
11. Drive 30 minutes to town for supper, gas and wire fencing.
12. Drive 30 minutes home.
13. Bake cake.
14. Bake 2 batches of cookies.
15. Make pasta salad.
16. Make chicken noodle soup.
17. Get five children bathed and clothes ready for 4:45 AM wake up. Sunrise service.
Somewhere in that time, I saw an email from RW. Didn’t read – clicked publish. (Have since read and he was very accurate and you should read it and respond.)
Saw you had commented but didn’t have time to read.
Later saw you commented to RW complaining about me. Clicked publish on both of yours without much chance to read them. Just so you cannot be so rude to RW, he has been very kind and considerate.
I will respond better to you later, which will probably be Monday because I have four services to attend tomorrow. I wouldn’t have spent this time now except I will remember why I was so busy and still got fussed at.
As I’ve said before you think everything is all about you.
Salvation for anyone is not all about them, but to glorify Christ.
Berean Wife
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Don; I can understand your confusion. I thought the same thing at one time. I thought there are so many denominations and interpretations what is a person to do. Nothing! I think we can agree that God is one . So he isn’t confused on what he said and what he meant. There is a promise in his word that says ye shall find me ,if ye shall seek me with all your heart Deut 4:29. Is that your hearts desire Don? Well let me ask you this then from Romans 3:11 Here God said there is none that seeketh after God no not one. I’ll ask you to read that whole context beginning in verse 9-28. The reason I put these seeming contridictory versus is to show you that God is not confused . You see because of sin we cant love God with all our heart its impossible. But yet God demands it at the same time. Why? Because He’s God he doesn’t answer to you and me. He knows what he’s doing . Job found that out . You can read his humbling experience in Job 38-41:34. You see Don I was Just like you at one time and when Jesus gets your attention you’ll know it. God will show up if you’ll humble youself and cry out to him . Why did Jesus tell Nicodemas He must be born again in John 3:1-5 If not they perish. Rev 20:11-15.This is easy to understand my friend it is very sobering for me to refrence these scriptures because I fear the Lord greatly. Don The Bible says the natural man does not recieve the things of the spirit of god neither can he know them because they are spiritually descerned 1 Corinthians 2:14. In all kindness if you have never came to the place where you see youself as God sees you as a sinner Romans 3:23 . The first 3 chapters of Romans explain our hopeless condition witout the righteousness of Christ . Galatians 3:22-24 in this pasage Paul explains the purpose of the law as a school teacher helping us learn we can’t keep the law in order to be saved from sin. The law points to the sinless Christ who alone keeps the law because He is the word of God John1:14. We need only change our minds (repent) and agree with God That His Son Jesus Will save you from your sin and give you His gift of eternal life Romans 6:23. This is available to anyone who will call on the name of the Lord John 6:47. Are you going to believe on Jesus . Not about Him But depend on Him alone to save you . He is waiting for your responce. If your married Don I don’t think you woke up one day and found a ring on your hand and a wife lying next to you and she said good morning Hon were married. Thats what believeing on Christ means. You say I DO take you as my only savior and lord. I’ll be praying for you !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You see Don you cant have universal salvation anymore than universal marriages you dont just wake up being married and people are not just going to wake up saved , born again against there own will. Be honest with your own heart the Holy spirit is witnessing to you right now that what your reading is the truth and it will never change. The spirit and the bride say come and let the one who heareth say come and let the one who thirst come , and let him drink of the water of life freely. Remember the wedding in cana of Galillee . Jesus is the wine . He is the way the truth and the life John 14:6
God Bless, FER
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Don,
I have responded to an issue of yours in the post today “When A Donkey Speaks …”
Read that and see if you still think you can throw out talking donkeys without having to throw out the other miraculous events of Scripture.
I will write about other issues you have with God and His Scriptures and post about them separately as time allows. You have had a couple of others ask you questions, it would be considered polite to respond.
Berean Wife
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Don,
I would love to have you comment on the post “When A Donkey Speaks …”
Surely now you can see the point and importance of believing in a talking donkey?
Berean Wife
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RW and FER,
Thank you for sharing the truth with Don. I’m sorry that he hasn’t responded to your comments. I guess he is still mad that I didn’t approve his comment instantly, it was delayed a total of 5 hours.
I’ll be answering several of his questions but in separate posts so that they won’t be quite so long as this post.
Berean Wife
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Don,
I have attempted to answer a few of your questions in several recent posts.
Berean Wife
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