SBC Convention: Five Motions Involve Mark Driscoll

Motions: Messengers endorse GCR task force, criticize Driscoll’s entity influence

Two motions were referred to all SBC entities:

— that “all SBC entities should monitor” funds spent in “activities related to or cooperative efforts with Mark Driscoll and/or the Acts 29 organization” and entity heads should submit a report of expenditures to appear in the 2010 Book of Reports, submitted by Kent Cochran, a messenger from Calvary Baptist Church in Republic, Mo.

— that SBC entities avoid “inviting event speakers” who “are known for publicly exhibiting unregenerate behavior … such as cursing and sexual vulgarity, immorality, or who publicly state their support for the consumption or production of alcohol,” submitted by Ida South, a messenger from First Baptist Church in Mathiston, Miss.

On the recommendation of the Committee on Order of Business, Hunt ruled several motions “not in order.”

The committee chairman’s, Render, said three resolutions were not in order because of reflecting harshly on particular individuals.

— that author Mark Driscoll’s books be removed from LifeWay Christian Bookstores because of his “reputation for abusive and ungodly language and … promotions of sex toys on his church web site,” submitted by Jim Wilson, pastor, First Baptist Church in Seneca, Mo.”We need to live holy lives and bringing this man to our college campuses and promoting his books in the bookstore … I believe is a violation of Scripture.”

— that messengers encourage all SBC entities “to refrain from inviting event speakers” who engage in “cursing and sexual vulgarity, or who publicly state their support for the consumption or production of alcohol,” submitted by Larry Reagan, pastor, Adams Chapel Baptist Church in Dresden, Tenn.

A motion by Brian LeStourgeon, pastor of First Southern Baptist Church in Camp Verde, Ariz., sought to have Mark Driscoll “address the concerns of his accusers” at the 2010 annual meeting. Render said the committee declined LeStourgeon’s motion since it could have put the Convention in the role of exercising church discipline.

At least some are seriously questioning Mark Driscoll and his language in the pulpit. It is a shame though that nothing will be done until next year. What is there to think about?  Hopefully this will serve as a wake up call to Mark Driscoll and his church.

Where are the men like this taking a stand for their Lord and their families I’ve had it with Mark Driscoll and his mouth. Now it’s personal!

If only the SBC would take a stand.

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21 thoughts on “SBC Convention: Five Motions Involve Mark Driscoll

  1. Well. You wouldn’t have liked Paul.

    Wow. Absolute big-brother-attitude….May God arrest your spirit with His and overwhelm you with the true focus and power of the Gospel.

    Peace and Grace,
    tim

    Berean Wife Reply:

    Actually, I love to read Paul’s writings. I also allow my children to read Paul’s writings and not only in the obscure KJV language.

    My children will not hear Mark Driscoll nor will I ever listen to him anymore or read anything more of his. He has ruined certain verses and thrown them in the mud. I did research him at one point, reading both the pros and the cons, but I cannot defile myself or my Lord with Driscoll’s “sermons” anymore. Not only that I cannot fully express how horrid Mark Driscoll is because I will not print what he says.

    Mark Driscoll is no Paul. Paul would have rebuked Mark Driscoll soundly.

    Berean Wife

  2. I am totally blown away by the condemning tone of this article. I have listened to most of Mark Driscoll’s sermons and I do not understand where these accusations are coming from. Is there a link to something that will confirm the charges are more than mere opinion?

    I am particularly blown away that Pastor Jim Wilson would want Lifeway to remove his books. Are you aware of the books they carry? They are full of “Purpose Driven” material, “Your Best Life Now”, and of course the book that will aid in the acceptance of pluralism (promoted by many Baptist pastors) “The Shack”. The request that Driscoll’s books be removed from Lifeway is quite comical.

    The accusations stated above appear to have a personal agenda. I do hope you will pray and search the Scriptures to see if there could be a hidden motive behind the claims. Mark Driscoll is blunt, but this article is a gross misrepresentation of him.

    Amy

  3. Amy,

    The fact that there were requests to remove Mark Driscoll’s books is not any different from the requests that other’s made concerning Lifeway. This article was just focused on Driscoll.

    This was also a motion at the SBC Convention but of course it was file 13’d:

    — that LifeWay Christian Stores should remove books “that are contrary to the Gospel” or the Baptist Faith and Message 2000, including books by T.D. Jakes and John Hagee, any Catholic Bibles “90 Minutes in Heaven” and “The Shack,” submitted by Channing Kilgore, associate pastor, South Whitwell Baptist Church, Whitwell, Tenn.

    So no Driscoll is not being “picked on.”

    My personal agenda is to not defame my Lord and His Name but to glorify His Name in all I do, see and hear. I also would never encourage another to listen to Driscoll because many, many people (especially young single men) have spoken about how his sermons are a stumbling block taking their mind somewhere where it has not a right to go.

    Why don’t you click the link given above and just see what it is Driscoll is teaching? Or are you too much of a fan of his instead of God’s Word to be honest?

    I cannot nor will I quote Driscoll nor will I directly link to his Pornographic “sermons”. There is plenty of information out there if you will remove the blinders and look at him according to God’s Word and not your own opinions.

    John Macarthur has written extensively about Mark Driscoll recently, here is the first article:

    The Rape of Solomon’s Song

    When a pastor of Macarthur’s experience and maturity and proven record chooses to rebuke a young pastor they best wake up and listen.

    Another thing is because as a female you must understand you will never be able to grasp how what you call “blunt” might affect the men sitting beside you. Many God fearing men have pointed out that they are caused to stumble due to Driscoll’s “sermons”. We are to never become stumbling blocks to another.

    Berean Wife

  4. I must totally agree with Amy. I have listened to many of Pastor Mark Driscoll’s sermons, I have 3 of his books, and I believe he is a much needed voice in the American church. He is very blunt at times and uses harsh language sometimes; but so did Paul, the minor prophets, and Spurgeon. If you compare the so called ‘vulgar language’ he uses to that which is in Scripture in the Greek and Hebrew you will find that the men of scripture would be accused of using vulgar language as well. Lastly on the alcohol issue. Christians have freedom in this area. We are only told to not get drunk, and if by us drinking alcohol causes a brother to stumble then we should refrain(Rom.14). But look at how the Lord has used him in the least churched city in America. Read the accounts of the rape victims he has prayed with and counseled. Read how he has challenged men to be godly men by loving God, their wives, and their kids. Also he does not preach a man centered arminian gospel like many pastors in the SBC and America. He preaches a Biblical, Christ centered Gospel and he is also Reformed in his theology. So before these fundamentalists pastors started throwing out their Pharisee loaded motions that are probably rooted in jealously at the SBC they should have done more research on how the Lord is using Mark Driscoll to impact the world with the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

  5. Matt,

    We are not talking about blunt words here. Nor we are talking about harsh words here. We are talking about painting pornographic word pictures worse than any steamy romance novel. You are not comparing the same things.

    Never once did Jesus, Paul or the other disciples describe what was to be happening in the Marriage bed in detail. That is the difference.

    Even John Piper who has been a supporter of Mark Driscoll has been critical:

    “Mark has stuck his foot in his mouth quite a few times….I would encourage no one to become coarse, filthy, trashy…”

    “With a certain young crowd, it’s hip, cool…I don’t think you’re mouth needs to be dirty to relate to twenty-somethings in Seattle.”

    “The difference between John MacArthur and I at this point is I am not drawing the line that John has drawn from the imperfections of Mark’s ministry to his unfitness of his ministry. I’m not going there at this point. I’m going to Mark. I’m getting in his face now…”I’m old enough to be his dad, he knows that, and I’m in his face, pleading with him…and saying ‘You have incredible influence’…and that’s part of the problem….”

    — John Piper at the Basics Conference

    The alcohol issue is a denominational issue. Whether alcohol is allowed or not was not the point but that the SBC does not allow Pastors and deacons to consume alcohol. That is an SBC issue and not necessarily a Christian issue as worded in the SBC guidelines.

    However, the biggest issue is that as you stated “if by us drinking alcohol causes a brother to stumble then we should refrain (Romans 14)” If Mark Driscoll’s speech and subject matter has caused single young men to develop mental images that they have no business thinking upon then Driscoll has caused a Brother to stumble.

    Concerning the fruit we are to look for:

    Is it for the seemingly converts that flock to the pastor?

    Is it for having a worldwide following?

    Is it for being controversial?

    If these are indications of Fruit then Joel Osteen, Binny Hinn, and Todd Bentley all qualify.

    What is evidence of pure religion?

    James 1:27 Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world. ESV

    Driscoll is stained by the world in his speech.

    Is his a life becoming more and more holy and conformed to the image of Christ?

    There will be many rejected from Heaven that appeared to have done might works in the name of Jesus.

    Matthew 7:22-23
    22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
    23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
    ESV

    Read the post Ten “Christians” God Will Not Allow Into Heaven and just see how Driscoll’s fruit just might not measure up.

    Berean Wife

  6. I’m not going to post the endless Driscolites’ arguments for his continued and unrepentant pornographic language. Because I will not allow another to be lead astray by his false teaching. (You can’t imagine how many comments this one post has generated from people just eagar to devend their idol.)

    You Driscolites can do the research for yourself. Prove that Mark Driscoll is really preaching God’s Word in God’s manner? With a focus on the Holiness of God.

    Those that are convinced of the problem, I recommend staying away from all Driscoll’s teaching until true repentance is shown. While we all are guilty of living lives of sin and should be striving to become more and more Holy, there is a bigger concern when a pastor and teacher exhibits sinful behavior that might lead astray another.

    Berean Wife

  7. Ephesians 5:4-17

    4 Let there be no filthiness nor foolish talk nor crude joking, which are out of place, but instead let there be thanksgiving.
    5 For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous ( that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.
    6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.
    7 Therefore do not associate with them;
    8 for at one time you were darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light
    9 (for the fruit of light is found in all that is good and right and true),
    10 and try to discern what is pleasing to the Lord.
    11 Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them.
    12 For it is shameful even to speak of the things that they do in secret.
    13 But when anything is exposed by the light, it becomes visible,
    14 for anything that becomes visible is light. Therefore it says, “Awake, O sleeper, and arise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you.”
    15 Look carefully then how you walk, not as unwise but as wise,
    16 making the best use of the time, because the days are evil.
    17 Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is.
    ESV

  8. Berean Wife,
    I definately do see your opinion on the matter. But I do believe from examining what Driscoll teaches with the Word of God to be inline and Orthodox. He like many of us has put his foot in his mouth and he has admitted that and repented of such things. He has recently welcomed the criticisms of Phil Johnson and John MacArthur who are solid expositors of scripture. A bit more fundamentalist than me but I can 110% agree with them on their stance of Reformed theology. As you probably know Driscoll has befriended such men as Piper, D.A. Carson, Tim Keller, J.I. Packer, and Danny Akin of SEBTS. These men along with Bruce Ware of SBTS have endorsed his books. Ao to really be critical of someone you need to read their works as well as listen to them. I highly recommend Death by Love and Vintage Jesus. They are solid works on the Atonement and on Christ. As far as his sermon series on the Song of Solomon I listened to it and I agree that he did have a couple of unneeded jokes thrown in. But the whole focus of the book and his sermons were the intimacy between a husband and wife in covenant marriage. His interpretation of the book was right on compared to say Paul Washer’s. While I love Bro. Paul he is off in saying the Song of Solomon is a picture of Christ and the Church. Let me say that you have many great resources on your site and it seems that you hold to a solid theology. I read and listen to many of the pastors that you do. But I have to say that you are wrong to put the Mark Driscoll in the basket of false teachers such as Benny Hinn, Osteen, Jakes, and Copeland. The man teaches the same Biblical doctrine as Spurgeon, Owens, Grudem, Piper, ect. So if Driscoll is a false teacher then I guess the others are as well. You probably think I am a Driscollite and am only defending him because I like him. Well that is partly true, but more than that is the Solid Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ that he teaches and preaches. Also the fact that he has seen the error of his ways in things he has said and has ..

  9. pubically repented of them. These things that I have said will probably not change your opinion of him and you might continue to falsely judge him and say he is a false teacher. But there is no denying from the origional languages that scripture uses words that are the equivalent of our modern day cuss words. My prayer for you is that you will research and get a wholeistic view of Driscoll before casting your judgements. Read his books, his websites(the Resurgence, and Mars Hills’ site), listen to his sermons, then make your opinion. He will have his critics who will shoot their fundamentalist’ guns at him; but he will also have men like Piper, DA Carson, Keller, and Danny Akin who will support him and Biblically rebuke him when he messes up so that he will continue to grow in holiness. I pray the Lord continue to use you and your family for the Glory of His great name!
    Soli Deo Gloria,
    Matt

  10. Matt,

    Although supposedly Mark Driscoll has apologized and repented of his speech and foul language years ago, his mouth has continued to spout off porn. Did you read the The Pilgrim’s post I’ve had it with Mark Driscoll and his mouth. Now it’s personal! ? We are talking about last week here. Piper’s comment was from last month.

    Even the secular media sees the fact that Mark Driscoll’s language is graphic and coarse. You can search for the NY Times article because I won’t link to it.

    I have listened to Mark Driscoll and I have researched him in order to make some judgment about his teaching since he is so popular. I read the pros and cons. But I could not continue nor will I even write up what I learned. Why because that man is fascinated with porn, sex and all manner of depravity. I will not write about what he talks about , John MacArthur has done enough. My computer cannot go to some of his sermons because they are NC-17. But when I read his cruel, slanderous use of a verse in God’s Holy Word then I will never willing listen to him again. That verse has been tainted by his joke. I pray that the Lord will erase my memory of that someday.

    Matt, you run the risk of being led astray by Driscoll and not even realizing it until it is too late. Driscoll makes us insensitive to the holiness of the marital relationship by dragging it in the mud with cruel jokes.

    When I research a topic I read the pros and the cons; Calvinistic vs Arminian; CCM verses anti-CCM; Atheistic vs Christian; etc. But when I was reading Driscoll I could not continue because I came away feeling dirty and defiled, not just righteous indignation.

    There are many pastors that have started out by teaching sound theology but when they started to go off in a particular area and did not listen to the wise counsel of others they continued off taking many with them. My husband just finished reading a two-volume biography on George Whitfield. What my husband found interesting is how long and how heated the debates between Whitfield and Wesley were concerning an Armenian type interpretation of Scripture.

    Matt, I am not talking about Mark Driscoll’s cuss words here nor his off color humor (those are bad enough). I’m talking about his pornographic visual word pictures such as where he tells women in detail what they must do in their relationship with their husband.

    This is not a light matter that is just divided into opinion camps. This is a matter of purity and holiness in the life of a world renown pastor and teacher and his teaching of God’s Word.

    Forget your opinion and see what the Lord says about our language, our associations with others and how we are to present the gospel with others. See the main idea behind God’s Sovereignity is that the Lord is responsible for calling others, not we ourselves. We are responsible for leading obedient lives and sharing God’s Word. God is responsible for the outcome. Yet Driscoll has changed the message into smut and porn in order to reach “the least churched city in the USA” he is doing what led to the problems in the SBC. Changing the message in order to reach a “target” group.

    Do you not know the “brownie story” about impurity? How much dog poop does it take to ruin a batch of brownies for you?

    Berean Wife

  11. My sister in Christ,
    it seems as though we could continue this discussion/ debate for days. I am just wondering how do you see the song of solomon then? If you like it or not it is graphic and detailed about the acts between a man and woman in the marriage bed. I will read the articles you have listed and be prayerful and open to the Holy Spirits’ guiding while reading them. Just to let you know where I am coming from: I am theologically a Charismatic Calvinist. I hold to the 1689 2nd London Confession, I just accepted a missions pastor position at a non-denominational church which is basically Baptist except for our view on the gifts of the Spirit. I am far from liberalism and believe that we should strive to put sin to death daily and grow in sanctification by the power of the Holy Spirit. I do believe that Driscoll in his Song of Solomon series he did address issues with his congregation that in his context of being in Seattle do get blurred. He preached a sermon specifically addressed to young men a few weeks ago and laid into apathetic men and those men who treated their wives or girlfriends in an ungodly manner. It was a much needed wakeup call to young men and older men as well. He has waged war against porn and from all his writings and sermons that is clear. He addresses it because of the people in his area of influence struggle with it. It seems as though we will have to agree to disagree on our opinions of him. But let me pose this to you: if his interpretation of scripture in Song of Solomon is correct then he has rightly preached Scripture that is God Breathed and inerrant/infallible. What if by him addressing the topics that you disagree with that it has brought people closer to God and their spouses. What if through what he has addressed concerning sex that the Holy Spirit used it to bring conviction on those commiting adultery & fornication? And repentance was the result. Dear sister I believe you have a passion for the Lord & for growing in holiness. But we must agree to disagree on this.

  12. Matt,

    “Origen and Jerome tell us that the Jews would not permit their young men to read this book until they were thirty years old. The reason was that they felt there was the danger of reading into it the salacious and the suggestive, the vulgar and the voluptuous, the sensuous and the sexual. On the contrary, this is a wonderful picture of physical, human, wedded love. It gives the answer to two erroneous groups of people: those who hold to asceticism and think it is wrong to get married, and those who hold to hedonism and think that the satisfying of their lusts is of primary importance. This book makes it very clear that both are wrong. It upholds wedded love as a very wonderful thing, a glorious experience.”
    J. Vernon Magee (you may not recognize that name but an old country Bible teacher)

    The Song of Solomon has multiple meanings.

    ~ The simplest and most obvious is the love of a husband and wife in a marriage relationship.

    ~ The second is the love of Christ for his bride the church.

    ~ The next is the love of God for Israel.

    But throughout the book, imagery and analogies are used and there is no clear interpretation given as to what certain portions mean. God used such language for our benefit, just as He used the term “knew” to mean more than what the world would trivialize it to mean. There is a mystery to the relationship between a husband and wife just as there is a mystery to the relationship to Christ and His church. We do much damage when we cast our pearls before swine. There is not graphic imagery in the Song of Solomon such as in Driscoll’s sermons.

    But what is the recurring theme in the Song of Solomon?

    Song of Solomon 3:5 “ … that you not stir up or awaken love until it pleases.” ESV

    Driscoll is not doing that, he is instilling images and ideas in the minds of unmarried young people before they are in a position to fulfill them. He is becoming a stumbling block to them.

    There is another issue that Driscoll says, “God commands you to do this _________.” When there is no such thing! He has added to God’s Word what is not there.

    Often people are implying that Seattle’s culture is more sexually depraved than any other culture in the USA, but that is incorrect. The sin in Seattle is no different from the sin anywhere else in the world at any other time in the world. The Corinthian church was noted for the problems but Paul did not give explicit instructions. We do not have to modify the Gospel for Seattle. Seattle is just more open about their sin than many other places in the world but not more sinful.

    This is Paul’s admonishment to Titus:

    Titus 2:6–8 Likewise urge the young men to be sensible; in all things show yourself to be an example of good deeds, with purity in doctrine, dignified, sound in speech which is beyond reproach, so that the opponent will be put to shame, having nothing bad to say about us.

    Driscoll would do well to do likewise.

    My husband has taught the Song of Solomon to a class of married couples. He limited his class to married couples even though there were a few unmarried who normally attended. He also never gave explicit instructions as to what should occur in the marriage bed. He dealt with the SoS in relation to marriages and in relation to Christ’s love for the Church.

    I hate the expression “agree to disagree” (personal opinion warning :)) why because there is one truth not multiple truths we can pick and choose from. Saying “agree to disagree” implies that there is a truth for you and a truth for me. Now granted there are disputable matters such as “What color should the church carpet be?” but a pastor’s preaching and his speech are not disputable matters, because there are so many verses that are given in Scripture concerning our communication.

    I pray that you will prayerfully read God’s Word and see how He tells us to communicate with others especially in sharing His gospel to others for His Name’s sake. I also hope you will read those that have pointed out the problems with Driscoll’s “sermons” (many are not shy from sharing specific examples) and see the multitude of Biblical reasons given for the warnings about Driscoll. This isn’t an age issue nor a culture issue but a sin issue.

    Berean Wife

    P.S. You’ve been very nice in this discussion. 🙂 Many of the comments I got on this post were deleted due to the anger and cruel comments. I can take them, but they do no service to the Lord and His people especially when non-Christians see that kind of verbal barrage and hate between those that claim to be Christians. That in itself is a reason for concern.

  13. Berean Wife,
    It has been a pleasure to discuss this topic with you. I made the grave mistake of engaging a hot headed arminian about a year ago and it turned into a heated debate that was not an iron sharpening iron discussion that is God honering. So it has been a pleasure to discuss this with you again. Let it be known I do disagree with some things that Driscoll does and says; but I stand firm in that he doesn’t meet the criteria of a false teacher. As we know Martin Luther whom God used to spear head the Reformation was known as well for using crude language. But to the point at hand of Pastor Mark using very descriptive language in his SOS series. I am sorry but in the book of SOS it does describe the acts between Solomon and the Shulamite woman(his wife for any non-Christians reading this). If it says it in scripture then it is well to be preached. But as far as when is it ok to teach the SOS to a certain age group or marriage status: Scripture gives no guidelines. I was in student ministry for 5 yrs prior to accepting the missions pastor position and I had one of my students(a male) ask me about SOS since he was reading it at the time on his own. What was I supposed to do tell him to not read it until he was a certain age? No, I would never tell someone to not read scripture since it is all God breathed and profitable. We discussed it with his parents approval. So again I firmly hold that SOS is a book showing the love between a man and his wife. Was Mark Driscoll a bit careless with his language and being a bit descriptive? That is the debate. And I do agree he has went over the line at times; but that is no reason to tag him as a false teacher. Is he teaching a false Gospel? Not at all! Is he teaching any false doctrine? Not at all. Then is he leading people into believing a heresy? NO! So the only sin he is guilty of is having a careless tongue. But I do give him props in that he taught a difficult topic and covered every detail in showing that sex is only acceptable with in marriage b/t a man & a woman

    Berean Wife Reply:

    Matt,

    I didn’t mean to imply that unmarried’s or young people should not read and or study the SoS. But the way that is handled with the different ages and situations would be different. Just as I can teach my very young children that adultery is wrong, but I don’t have to go into specifics. I would teach youth in a much different manner than I would married couples. I’m glad that you got the parents approval. That is very wise and if and when the Lord grants you children you will appreciate others showing the same respect.

    I reread SoS just to refresh my mind. Beyond kissing and embracing, there is nothing graphic about the relationship in the book. There is alot of conjecture about items but it is not clear and is couched in mystery. We aren’t to see the specifics in the marriage bed. That is not the case with Driscoll’s sermons believe me I read them/heard them.

    Driscoll’s theology may be fine but his methodology is off. We are to worship the Lord in “Spirit and in Truth”. He may have the facts right about doctrine, but he has missed the spirit of holiness and purity.

    If you change your mind after reading the links and doing some serious study, I would love to know.

    Thanks for the kind words. I accidently ran into a hothead Arminian when I asked a question once concerning a particular verse. Whew. I rarely leave comments elsewhere for that reason. 🙁

    Berean Wife

  14. Berean Wife,
    I appreciate your graciousness during this discussion. Just for my own curiousness, have you or your husband received any formal Biblical training such as from Bible college or Seminary? Just wondering. Back to the subject at hand the SOS. My sister in Christ it appears that you are in denial of what is said in SOS or you hold to an allegorical view of the book. I hold to a literal historical view of the book. I am going to give you some verses in the book to study over that are quite graphic since you are in error by saying that only kissing and embracing are described herein. I do acknowledge that many scholars have said the SOS is difficult to interpret; but that statement is made by those who try and allegorize the book. Read over these: 4:5-6 he caresses her breasts and they make love until dawn. 4:16-5:1; and 6:13 the dance of the Mahanaim; 7:6-13. These all are very descriptive. I reread SOS again and used commentaries by John MacArthur who stated about 6:13 that the marital dance she did would only have been appropriate for Solomon to view. I also used D.A. Carsons’ commentary, and my OT survey text book by Hill and Walton from Wheaton and are the formost scholars on the OT. I will let you do some serious study over those and if you have had any formal Bible training then you will know to use your inductive Bible study methods and heremenutics to exhaust each verse. At least that’s what I have been taught during my time in Bible college. And yes the Lord has blessed my wife and I with a son who is a great joy. He just turned 5 and it is such a priviledge to be a dad. I anticipate that we will not have unity on this issue but that is ok. We both still hold to the core beliefs of the Christian faith and it appears we are both Reformed in our Theology. Glory to God for that! May you be blessed as you seek to draw closer to the Lord and grow in Grace and Holiness.
    Soli Deo Gloria,
    Matt

  15. Matt,

    My husband and I have no Bible College or Seminary Training; we have had the college of hard knocks training. 🙂 See we grew up in SBC churches and my husband has been teaching since I don’t remember when, we were young married. But my husband is an engineer, if you know any engineers you’ll know what I mean. He was very serious in his Bible study and in procuring resources. We had a Bible software program before most even knew they existed. We found the large SBC church we were attending was drifting away from a Biblical foundation. He even confronted the Pastor about the slippery slope (Spurgeon has always been his favorite.) We left that church when we moved and joined a small SBC church that seemed at the time an improvement.

    But we found we were always being confronted with Arminian ideas (do whatever it takes to get them here) and an ignoring of the full Scripture. While he continued to preach and teach, we weren’t making any progress because even this church kept sliding down the slope. So we have left that SBC church. We are limited in our area (rural) in churches that adhere to the Doctrines of Grace.

    My husband teaches and preaches at several churches, now, all small and quite a drive for us. One a “reforming” SBC church (similar to Noblit’s; we fit in better there) and one is actually Primitive Baptist (that is humorous because we aren’t Primitive Baptist by a long shot, but definitely “iron sharpening iron” discussions) but they appreciate his focus on God’s Sovereignty and Grace. His sermon Sunday night at the SBC church was “Studying Your Bible For All It is Worth” (several of the PB church drove to hear him) based more on the Spiritual aspects of Bible Study (unbelievers cannot grasp the Truth, etc.) He also does a study teaching others the technical skills of Bible Study (resources, cross references, defining words according to Scripture, original words, etc.) If he was younger and in better health, he might would attend somewhere such as Master’s College, but with a household of children it isn’t possible. So he studies online and on his own.

    More than you wanted but I thought you might find it interesting. 🙂

    As to SoS, this is what I’d said,
    Beyond kissing and embracing, there is nothing graphic about the relationship in the book. There is alot of conjecture about items but it is not clear and is couched in mystery. We aren’t to see the specifics in the marriage bed. That is not the case with Driscoll’s sermons believe me I read them/heard them.

    The mystery of their love remains shrouded in analogies and imagery. We aren’t told graphically about what happened all night. Nor are we described the “dance.”

    This is John MacArthur’s own quote concerning Driscoll and his SoS series:

    Solomon’s Song is, as I’ve said from the outset, a love poem between Solomon and his bride, celebrating their mutual love for one another, including the delights of the marriage bed. To interpret this—or any other portion of Scripture—in a purely allegorical fashion is to treat the interpreter’s own imagination as more authoritative than the plain meaning of the text.

    However, those who pretend to know the meanings of poetic symbols that are not clearly identifiable from the text itself commit the very same error. Their speculation is likewise a way of exalting their own imaginations to a higher level of authority than the plain sense of the text.

    Please read the rest of MacArthur’s commentary here.

    It isn’t the same comparison. If you had quoted Driscoll, I would have had to block the comment due to the graphic nature.

    I have a four year old and he is a special treasure, everyone loves him and he doesn’t lack for attention. His four siblings 17 – 9 are always playing and interacting with him, especially the 17-year-old son. It has been a privilege to see the effects of homeschooling our children. Give it some serious consideration and prayer.

    I believe that the Lord will “reform” anyone if they study His Word seriously and without their own agenda. Hopefully, more will get into God’s Word.

    Berean Wife

  16. Berean Wife,
    It’s been a while. My wife, son, and myself just got home from being in the Czech Rep. on a mission trip. It is awesome to hear how the Lord is using you and your husband. It has been a blessing to carry on a good conversation with you. But it seems we will not reach an agreement on SoS. I hold to what Scripture teaches and I am convinced through the Hebrew language and solid scholars other than MacArthur that Driscoll’s interpretation is Orthodox and spot on. We could continue to beat a dead horse but we will more than likely not be in unity on this topic. I praise the Lord for men like your husband who is striving to know the Lord in a deeper way and challenging others to do so as well. Thank you for a gracious discussion and your stance on the glorious Doctrines of Grace! May you be blessed as you love your husband and your children in the Lord.
    Soli Deo Gloria,
    Matt

  17. Matt,

    I hope your family enjoyed your mission trip and that the Lord will use your efforts for His Glory and for the salvation of others.

    We have had our own mission endeavor but it was all at home. We have been part of the planning for a local Bible Conference. The Lord caused things to work out such that we ended up with Dr. George Ella, a German author of 20 plus historical books, coming to a small local town for a conference. He is a treasure trove of information and history. Last night was on John Gill. In the next few weeks, we will try to get the audio up for Dr. Ella’s speaking. If you get a chance to read Dr. Ella’s books I think you would enjoy them and learn much about church history.

    In addition, we had a full museum display of the Dead Sea Scrolls & Gutenburg Press and a different museum display of the different English translations of the Bible. Original 1616 KJV, 1580 Latin Vulgates, 1380 reprint of Wycliffe, 1599 Geneva, etc. Both of the displays were within two doors of the Conference, which was on the History of the Indestructible Book.

    Sorry that we disagree about Driscoll but no matter what if we keep ourselves immersed in God’s Infallible Word He will in His own time show us both our errors and misunderstandings.

    James 1:5 If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives generously to all without reproach, and it will be given him. ESV

    Berean Wife

  18. Berean Wife. I saw you quote James about pure and faultless religion. Yet the Baptist doctrine forbids alcohol consumption which does not fall into either category of pure and faultless religion. It could be argued that it is to keep to be unstained from the world, but in Romans 14 doctrine like that was from those characterized as the weak in faith.

    It is pure legalism, and is not a doctrine that is biblical and doesn’t come from any of the writings where Paul instructs how to lead a church. With that said, rules like that are what Churches and cause Christians to take pride for their useless legalism.

    “So do not let what you regard what is good be spoken of as evil.” Rom. 14:16.
    Drunkenness is a sin, but drinking is not.
    If drinking was a sin then Jesus would be considered an enabler and causing others to sin for turning water to wine. I am aware of the common Baptist response which is that he was making the water safe, but there is no evidence in the Bible for that, and it would just say he cleaned the water miraculously.

    Driscoll makes mistakes, but don’t forget to take the plank out of your own eye. He may do some things wrong, but he has solid doctrine which Paul teaches to guard closely.

    Berean Wife Reply:

    Kirk,

    First of all I wrote a total of a couple of paragraphs in this post. The majority of the post is an exert from the Motions presented to the Southern Baptist Convention. Thus the exert includes quotes from many people in the Southern Baptist Convention.

    I agree that the Southern Baptist position on Alcohol is not Biblical. While I feel that alcohol consumption is very unwise and unnecessary, I cannot say that it is to be forbidden according to Scripture.

    However, there were many, many other complaints concerning Driscoll which honestly are much more concerning. He has been known for his vulgarity, crudeness, and constant sexual references. There is no excuse for a man preaching God’s Word to speak in such a manner.

    Ephesians 5:4 (ESV) Let there be no filthiness nor foolish talk nor crude joking, which are out of place, but instead let there be thanksgiving.

    Berean Wife

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